The organ

[TruHart1]

Since the esteemed @AdamSmith is OP of this thread we must respect the diverse directions to which he has at times taken this thread. Not to mention others such as @TruHart1 who has shared his love of opera... or is he really in love with Jonas Kaufmann? Diversity is the spice of life...

 

At times seemingly crooked paths can lead to greatness as in:

 

Mi trovai per una selva oscura

Chè la diritta via era smarrita.

(I found myself in a dark forest

Where the direct path was lost.)

 

Plus, I have much more to say about Beethoven, Rossini, and even Dante. Stay tuned!

I must admit to a major crush when it comes to Herr Kaufmann's voice (and feel he is certainly in DILF territory in certain roles!) Whether you quote Dante or not @whipped guy, IMHO, he's the best tenor singing right now!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1107838262641335

 

TruHart1

[AdamSmith]

Mad Ludwig's train of thought!

 

The three Leonore Overtures for Fidelio were written in the following order: 2,3.1.

 

The first two were actually mini tone poems that told the story of the action of the opera. The problem is that in doing so they not only overpowered the opera, but narrated the contours of the story with such intensity that that it almost negated the need for the opera itself! This is especially true of number three which is one of the most forceful compositions ever written.

 

With number one, which was intended for a performance that never took place the intensity is reduced significantly and of the three Leonore versions is the most anemic. Beethoven as we will see was definitely going in a different direction, but still was not quite there.

 

However, he ultimately realized that the perfect opera overture was designed to get the audience in the proper theatrical frame of mind for what was to follow. The audience should be made to imagine all the activity that was going on back stage and at least metaphorically be made to smell the greasepaint. Such was the case with Beethoven's final attempt... the Fidelio Overture. So while Beethoven took 10 years of struggle to come to that realization it was something that came second nature to Rossini since he literally grew up in the theatre as a child. Still, Beethoven's struggle was a small price to pay for those three anazing compositions and especially for Leonore No.3!

Thank you! I thought that source I cited above that said four was not quite right. But was there not yet a fourth form of the thing, or some derivative or offshoot, under a different title?

 

My mind is dissolving & giving up on me...

[AdamSmith]

and even Dante. Stay tuned!

...ed elli avea del cul fatto trombetta!

 

[AdamSmith]

and even Dante. Stay tuned!

E quindi uscimmo a riveder le stelle.

Inferno XXXIV, 139

[AdamSmith]

Werkmeister III temperament

This thread has little trouble getting itself back on track from it sillinesses.

 

The Duke Flentrop temperament is according to Lambert Chaumont, 1695. The pitch is A = 440 at 72° F (22.2° C).

 

http://www.organsociety.org/database/photos/NC/Durham.DukeUniversityChapel.1976Flentrop.Ritch01.jpg

 

Hoofdwerk

Fluework

Prestant 16'

Bourdan 16'

Octaaf 8'

Octaaf 4'

Quint 2-2/3'

Terts 1-3/5'

Mixtuur 2'

Scherp 1'

Cornet (from C3)

Reedwork

Bombarde 16'

Trompette 8'

Clairon 4'

Trompet 8'

Trompeta Magna (from C3) 16'

Clarin (from C3) 8'

Trompeta Batalla (C1 - B2) 4'

 

Rugwerk

Fluework

Prestant 8'

Gedekt 8'

Octaaf 4'

Fluit 4' (gedekt)

Nasard 2-2/3' (roerfluit)

Octaaf 2'

Fluit 2'

Terts 1-3/5'

Larigot 1-1/3'

Sesquialter 2-2/3'

Sesquialter 1-3/5'

Mixtuur 2'

Scherp 1'

Reedwork

Cromorne 8'

Schalmey 8'

Trompet 4'

 

Echo

Fluework

Gedekt 8'

Prestant 4'

Fluit 4' (C' - E' gedekt)

Nachthoorn 2'

Cornet (from C3)

Reedwork

Hautbois 8'

 

Bovenwerk

Fluework

Prestant 8'

Baarpijp 8'

Gedekt 8'

Quintadeen 8'

Octaaf 4'

Roerfluit 4'

Nasard 2-2/3' (C1 - B2 gedekt)

Fluit 2'

Terts 1-3/5'

Sifflet 1'

Mixtuur 2'

Reedwork

Trompet 8'

Hobo 8'

Vox Humana 8'

 

Pedaal

Fluework

Prestant 16'

Subbas 16'

Quint 10-2/3' (gedekt)

Octaaf 4'

Quint 5-1/3'

Octaaf 4'

Nachthoorn 2'

Mixtuur 4'

Reedwork

Bazuin 16'

Trompette 8'

Trompet 8'

Clairon 4'

Zink 2'

 

https://chapel.duke.edu/sites/default/files/Flentrop_Stoplist.pdf

[whipped guy]

Thank you! I thought that source I cited above that said four was not quite right. But was there not yet a fourth form of the thing, or some derivative or offshoot, under a different title?

 

My mind is dissolving & giving up on me...

It's hopeless as indeed "A mind is a terrible thing when wasted!" As in mushrooms?!?!?

 

There were always only three Leonore Overtures ... as in one, two, three... or more precisely

eins, zwei, drei. Plus only one Fidelio Overture. That adds up to four as in vier!

 

However, like Beethoven's piano concerti, they were not numbered correctly... come to think about it musicologists were never good with numbers. They also screwed up the numbering of Chopin's concerti and there were only two. We won't even talk about what they did with Schubert as in "symphony number seven formally known as number nine" or it it the other way around? Then Christa Landon renumbered all Haydn Piano Sonatas, but when the latest version was recently revised and published they reverted to the original Hoboken numbers since she screwed things up even worse than Hoboken did! Was that Sonata number 19 or 30! Both are in D major?!?! Of course my favorite is how did Bruckner end up with a Symphony number 00? And what's happened to number 0? Plus who were these guys named Nowak and Haas?:eek:

 

So perhaps Mr. Smith was not smoking mushrooms, but simply reading an article by a misguided and dyslexic musicologist!

[whipped guy]

This thread has little trouble getting itself back on track from it sillinesses.

 

The Duke Flentrop temperament is according to Lambert Chaumont, 1695. The pitch is A = 440 at 72° F (22.2° C).

 

http://www.organsociety.org/database/photos/NC/Durham.DukeUniversityChapel.1976Flentrop.Ritch01.jpg

 

Hoofdwerk

Fluework

Prestant 16'

Bourdan 16'

Octaaf 8'

Octaaf 4'

Quint 2-2/3'

Terts 1-3/5'

Mixtuur 2'

Scherp 1'

Cornet (from C3)

Reedwork

Bombarde 16'

Trompette 8'

Clairon 4'

Trompet 8'

Trompeta Magna (from C3) 16'

Clarin (from C3) 8'

Trompeta Batalla (C1 - B2) 4'

 

Rugwerk

Fluework

Prestant 8'

Gedekt 8'

Octaaf 4'

Fluit 4' (gedekt)

Nasard 2-2/3' (roerfluit)

Octaaf 2'

Fluit 2'

Terts 1-3/5'

Larigot 1-1/3'

Sesquialter 2-2/3'

Sesquialter 1-3/5'

Mixtuur 2'

Scherp 1'

Reedwork

Cromorne 8'

Schalmey 8'

Trompet 4'

 

Echo

Fluework

Gedekt 8'

Prestant 4'

Fluit 4' (C' - E' gedekt)

Nachthoorn 2'

Cornet (from C3)

Reedwork

Hautbois 8'

 

Bovenwerk

Fluework

Prestant 8'

Baarpijp 8'

Gedekt 8'

Quintadeen 8'

Octaaf 4'

Roerfluit 4'

Nasard 2-2/3' (C1 - B2 gedekt)

Fluit 2'

Terts 1-3/5'

Sifflet 1'

Mixtuur 2'

Reedwork

Trompet 8'

Hobo 8'

Vox Humana 8'

 

Pedaal

Fluework

Prestant 16'

Subbas 16'

Quint 10-2/3' (gedekt)

Octaaf 4'

Quint 5-1/3'

Octaaf 4'

Nachthoorn 2'

Mixtuur 4'

Reedwork

Bazuin 16'

Trompette 8'

Trompet 8'

Clairon 4'

Zink 2'

 

https://chapel.duke.edu/sites/default/files/Flentrop_Stoplist.pdf

Is that what is meant by "pulling out all the stops"?

[AdamSmith]

So perhaps Mr. Smith was not smoking mushrooms, but simply reading an article by a misguided and dyslexic musicologist!

Mushrooms actually are ingested. Chewed & swallowed.

 

Quite disgusting, in taste & fact. Copious quantities of Gatorade or the like needed to keep them down, & let them take effect.

[whipped guy]

Mushrooms actually are ingested. Chewed & swallowed.

 

Quite disgusting, in taste & fact. Copious quantities of Gatorade or the like needed to keep them down, & let them take effect.

LOL! Well totally outed as not ever being part of the scene... but how is Mr. Smith so knowledgeable? He is famous for his encyclopedic range of knowledge, but I was always of the impression that he only stored the information that was needed and useful. So?!?!?!

 

Reminds me of the episode from "Married With Children" where Peg Bundy can't quite figure out how to use an at home pregnancy test... and half-wit Kelly begins describing the process as if she were Einstein ... as in you mix reagent A with reagent B which creates an emulsion for the monoclonal antibodies... etc. Or some such thing!

[AdamSmith]

LOL! Well totally outed as not ever being part of the scene... but how is Mr. Smith so knowledgeable? He is famous for his encyclopedic range of knowledge, but I was always of the impression that he only stored the information that was needed and useful.

Believe me! When you've just eaten 3 or 4 of those vile babies and are struggling to keep them in your stomach, any least clue is needed and useful.

[AdamSmith]

This post will generate little notice, but give me a chance to "vent."

 

The Organ has given this admitted lerker a chance to post to the forum on topics I enjoyed contributing to. My contributions to subjects as diverse as Marie Clare Alain carving a pumpkin, Werkmeister III temperament, and Julliard organ faculty hijincks have been welcome with good humor and, always, acceptance. Simply put, I have enjoyed, for what it was worth, contributing. And importantly, I have liked your immediate good natured feedback.

 

What has happened to the thread? I have no answer but would welcome a response from the original authors. Time to end and begin another? Not for this infrequent but conscientious contributor to answer.

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler. If we knew what we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" Einstein

 

"The Universe is not only queerer than we imagine; it is queerer than we can imagine." J.B.S. Haldane

 

"If the idea is not at first absurd, then there is no hope for it." Einstein

My best thoughts gentlemen, and thanks for all your input including non-related Beethoven and operatic arcania---all of which I would enjoy under a separate, immediately recognizable, header.

,

Another way to put it is simply to repost the historical quotations I thought were good enough to make my signature block here.

 

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler. If we knew what we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" Einstein

 

"The Universe is not only queerer than we imagine; it is queerer than we can imagine." J.B.S. Haldane [Actually instead of "queerer" he wrote "stranger." It was his disciple Arthur C. Clarke who always misquoted it as "queerer," and I love that Papa-Freud moment so much that I always cite it Clarke's way.]

 

"If the idea is not at first absurd, then there is no hope for it." Einstein

[whipped guy]

Beethoven and Rossini part three:

 

An interesting quote regarding the Beethoven vs. Rossini debate:

 

"A person feels good listening to Rossini. All you feel like listening to Beethoven is going out and invading Poland. Ode to Joy indeed. The man didn’t even have a sense of humor. I tell you,” shaking his skinny old fist, “there is more of the Sublime in the snare-drum part of "La Gazza Ladra" than in the whole Ninth Symphony. With Rossini, the whole point is that lovers always get together, isolation is overcome, and like it or not that is the one great centripetal movement of the World. Through the machineries of greed, pettiness, and the abuse of power, love occurs. All the shit is transmuted to gold. The walls are breached, the balconies are scaled—listen!"

 

-Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

 

There is do doubt that the stylistic disparity between Beethoven and Rossini has its basis in the profound differences in Italian and German cultures. One can also compare Bach and Vivaldi in a similar light. Indeed Bach was influenced by Vivaldi at least as regrads the structure of his compositions. He even composed a piece entitled Concerto in the Italian Style, but in the final analysis Bach can't mask his Teutonic origins. By the final movement Bach might make you feel good, but Vivaldi not only puts a broader smile on your face, he makes you want to dance as well!

 

In Rossini's time Schubert likewise composed two pieces titled Overture in the Italian Style. Other than having a slow introduction that precedes an allegro they never capture the theatricality, melodic inspiration, or joy inherent in Rossini. Schubert unlike Beethoven attempted to compete in Vienna with Rossini operatically speaking, but he was never successful in that regard.

 

Two composers who did capture a portion of the spirit of Italy were Handel and Mozart, but it must be remembered that both spent a significant portion of their youth in Italy absorbing what it had to offer. No wonder the French government established the "Prix de Rome" where a young composer, artist, writer, or architect would be awarded a scholarship to study at the Académie de France in Italy.

 

Conversely, it is quite fascinating that in some respects Rossini reached the apex of his career only after leaving Italy. When he met Beethoven and finally became intimately acquainted with his music it was the first time that he had left his native land. He subsequently would visit England and finish out his operatic career in France. He was also one of the main supporters of the newly formed Orchestre de la Société des Concerts du Conservatoire whose main goal was to introduce superlative performances of Beethoven's Symphonies to the Parisian public. Obviously being directly exposed to other individuals and cultures certainly factored into the equation. Indeed Haydn and Mozart attained their greatest heights only after becoming totally acquainted with each others compositions. That Haydn reached his ultimate heights only after traveling out of his Austrian sphere also speaks volumes.

 

Interestingly later in life Rossini told Wagner that his achievements paled in comparison to those of Haydn and Mozart and that if he had studied in Germany he would have attained greater heights. At that same meeting he referenced referenced Beethoven as "a prodigy among men" and Bach as "a miracle of God". What is ironic is that during his years of active composition before leaving Italy many Italian critics considered his music to be Teutonic in nature due to its heavy orchestration. Even as a child his teachers referenced him as "Il tedeschino", the little German.

 

Returning to Pynchon, and specifically the quip about invading another country, it is important to remember that both Beethoven and Rossini worked and lived under the shadow of the conquering Napoleon not only as he was devastating Europe, but during the difficult aftermath as well. Moreover, at least for the general public, Rossini was successful because as alluded to previously he had the ability to instill a sense of well-being and comfort in a public weary from dealing with the ravages of war.

 

When considering both composers Rossini's comic works are the obvious antidote for the sternness of Beethoven. However, even with his serious compositions, Rossini elicits a certain sense of elation and well-being. One only need sample the "Prayer" from Mosè in Egitto, the "Chorus of the Bards" from La Donna del Lago,or the final moments of Guillaume Tell to name but three examples. All generate a sense of hope that are at one with man's intrinsic instincts for freedom. Indeed, that the simplicity of the first mentioned piece can give rise to such feelings is a tribute to Rossini's ability to do so much with so little. These are indeed sentiments that Beethoven's is famous for portraying, but that Rossini does so in a manner that can often be the polar opposite of Beethoven's style is the key to the difference in his genius.

 

It is interesting to note that Pynchon slyly bridged the gap by selecting La Gazza Ladra which is an "opera semi-seria" a genre that similar to Mozart's Don Giovanni combines elements of the comic and the tragic. In fact in a comparison of the two operas one can easily see the key to Rossini's dramaturgy. Where as Mozart places a degree of emphasis on the menacing aspects, Rossini gives more prominence to the optimistic elements. With Mozart there is always the specter of dread lurking in the wings. In contrast, Rossini's manner draws the audience into the drama such that, even when events seem dire, hope and reassurance are constantly offered. Plus, when the ultimate tragedy is averted, he pulls out all the stops and concludes the piece with the most joyous and exhilarating finale imaginable. Something similar can be said when comparing Mozart's Le Nozze di Figaro and Rossini's Il Barbiere di Siviglia. Both are comic operas based on Beaumarchais plays which feature the irrepressible Figaro. With Mozart for all his Italianate vivacity there is a tinge of melancholy that is absent from Rossini's appproach. In that regard, while Mozart explores a greater range of emotions, it is Rossini who best represents the high spirits and sardonic wit inherent in the Beaumarchais originals. It is no wonder that Il Barbiere was praised by Beethoven.

 

Finally, to totally understand the struggle between Beethoven vs. Rossini one must delve deeper. Do we want to experience the liberation of the soul via the apocalyptic as in Beethoven, or simply via man's innate instincts and aspirations for the pursuit of liberty and happiness? Similar to Dante in his Divine Comedy, Beethoven takes a detour through the depths of despair via that infamous crooked path that traverses the recesses of hell itself. Only after such a hellish journey can one begin the ascent through purgatory before finally attaining salvation. With Beethoven as in Dante there are lessons to be learned. One is made to understand the consequences of the loss of Heaven prior to being taken there. With Rossini (who loved Dante by the way) we do not loose the direct path but are taken anon to the desired goal of euphoric salvation.

 

It is needless to say that civilization is infinitely richer for having both Beethoven and Rossini. Each has a unique place in Western culture and may we recognize, appreciate, and revel in what both have contributed.

[AdamSmith]

When considering both composers Rossini's comic works are the obvious antidote for the sternness of Beethoven. However, even with his serious compositions, Rossini elicits a certain sense of elation and well-being. One only need sample the "Prayer" from Mosè in Egitto, the "Chorus of the Bards" from La Donna del Lago,or the final moments of Guillaume Tell to name but three examples. All generate a sense of hope that are at one with man's intrinsic instincts for freedom. Indeed, that the simplicity of the first mentioned piece can give rise to such feelings is a tribute to Rossini's ability to do so much with so little. These are indeed sentiments that Beethoven's is famous for portraying, but that Rossini does so in a manner that can often be the polar opposite of Beethoven's style is the key to the difference in his genius.

To this whole post, BRAVA!!!

 

But in re: LvB, do these thoughts possibly not give quite enough ground to the aspects of lighted radiance, upward-lookingness, and unconflicted joy put forth in the Second, Sixth and Eighth symphonies? And the Fourth, to a considerable degree?

[whipped guy]

To this whole post, BRAVA!!!

 

But in re: LvB, do these thoughts possibly not give quite enough ground to the aspects of lighted radiance, upward-lookingness, and unconflicted joy put forth in the Second, Sixth and Eighth symphonies? And the Fourth, to a considerable degree?

Yes, I somewhat disagree with Pynchon that Beethoven did not have a sense of humor and I purposely did not explore that in my post to see if anyone would pick up on that. Well the insightful Mr. Smith did. As a kid I knew all the Beethoven Symphonies before I got interested in opera. (I was also intrigued with S&M so I guess that I was not your typical kid!) When I first heard the Overture to Rossini's Tancredi (1812-13) the first thing that I thought of was Beethoven's Fourth Symphony (1806-07). Of course I figured that Rossini knew it, but obviously that was not the case. Still Beethoven's sense of humor was of the German beer hall variety. I think that he had to tie one one before letting loose!

 

It is interesting that the even numbered symphonies are the ones that are considered to be the runts of the litter with the possible exception of number six, which I find uplifting as opposed to humorous, but it does have its lighter moments. I also probably find more humor in number four and especially the way that the timpani pounds away when the first movement's opening theme is repeated... of course it can also be interpreted of Mad Ludwig having a temper tantrum, but the thought of that can be quite comical in itself!

[AdamSmith]

ya know we BDSM folk have reputations to uphold! .

That phrase has a certain admirable (indeed hot ) stiffness that I think more than does the trick!

[AdamSmith]

P.S. The Fourth is interesting in being, to me, almost as "large" -- not quite, but in the direction -- as the Third. He put a very considerable amount of "stuff" in there.

 

And the Eighth I think is slighted by some -- hardly all -- musicologists and critics as being "smaller" than in fact it is. It is a gem of compactness. Much spirit, spiritual insight one might say, in relatively very few notes.

[whipped guy]

P.S. The Fourth is interesting in being, to me, almost as "large" -- not quite, but in the direction -- as the Third. He put a very considerable amount of "stuff" in there.

 

And the Eighth I think is slighted by some -- hardly all -- musicologists and critics as being "smaller" than in fact it is. It is a gem of compactness. Much spirit, spiritual insight one might say, in relatively very few notes.

The Fourth is unfortunately sandwiched in between the two giants. The Eighth is exactly as you describe it! Hence both are considered to be the runts of the litter and unjustly so! Same with the Second where he is beginning to spread his wings more than he did so in the First. Incidentally the First is usually referenced as homage to Haydn and Mozart... No way in my book. Example: He may have called the third movement a Minuet, but its a Scherzo plain and simple. Plus there is a power throughout that H and M never achieved. Kind of like Wagner compared to what came before.

[AdamSmith]

The Fourth is unfortunately sandwiched in between the two giants. The Eighth is exactly as you describe it! Hence both are considered to be the runts of the litter and unjustly so! Same with the Second where he is beginning to spread his wings more than he did so in the First. Incidentally the First is usually referenced as homage to Haydn and Mozart... No way in my book. Example: He may have called the third movement a Minuet, but its a Scherzo plain and simple. Plus there is a power throughout that H and M never achieved. Kind of like Wagner compared to what came before.

YES!!! To, again, all of this.

 

The First is just exactly as you say: too often underrated, viewed unjustly as repetition of near precursors, when in fact it already begins to show his titanic genius more than beginning to break out, far beyond the molds of his recent forebears.

[AdamSmith]

YES!!! To, again, all of this.

 

The First is just exactly as you say: too often underrated, viewed unjustly as repetition of near precursors, when in fact it already begins to show his titanic genius more than beginning to break out, far beyond of the molds of his recent forebears.

Although it does very much bear the stamp, which you have noted and detailed, of Haydn's knowing country roughness, but then enlarged even beyond Papa's considerable stretching in turn of the bounds of what came just before him.

[TruHart1]

I guess I have been officially referenced as a opera queen in the forum... by use of the term BRAVA...LOL! I never really thought of myself as being one, ya know we BDSM folk have reputations to uphold! .

It's somewhat amusing @whipped guy since I (an almost country mouse from the Midwest!) was always told by NYC (gay) friends that if I wanted to discern who might be gay in standing room at the MET, to look no further than the men in leather, basically Leather Queen=Opera Queen! HA!!!

 

TruHart1

[whipped guy]

Although it does very much bear the stamp, which you have noted and detailed, of Haydn's knowing country roughness, but then enlarged even beyond Papa's considerable stretching in turn of the bounds of what came just before him.

The opening of the allegro theme of Beethoven's First, at least the first few measures, is supposedly an alteration (a bastardization?) of the opening measures of Mozart's last, the Jupiter Symphony No. 41... both are in C major. Regarding the third movement which is really a scherzo, Papa Haydn's later minuets are quite scherzo like in nature. It is interesting that if you play the Minuet of Haydn's Clock Symphony no. 101 fast as if a scherzo and then conversely play the "Scherzo" of Beethoven's First slowly It is easy to see how they can be made to almost sound alike! There is a theory that Haydn's minuets were played at a faster clip... but that is based on early 19th Century metronome markings and we all know the caveats when those are factored into the equation.! Plus, were editors deliberately trying to make Papa Haydn sound more up to date? Either way there is much humor in Haydn's late minuets no matter at what speed they are played!

[whipped guy]

It's somewhat amusing @whipped guy since I (an almost country mouse from the Midwest!) was always told by NYC (gay) friends that if I wanted to discern who might be gay in standing room at the MET, to look no further than the men in leather, basically Leather Queen=Opera Queen! HA!!!

 

TruHart1

Well, I do not recall seeing many men in leather at the MET, but at Carnegie Hall... YES! Two guys... Leather chaps and vest... assless chaps, but jeans worn underneath... the whole nine yards... and it was at an Opera Orchestra of NY performance of Rossini's Otello if I recall correctly. Imagine that! Gay Leather men interested in opera and in Rossini no less, who woulda thunk!?!? They were sitting directly behind me. One had Mr. Fire Island 2000 something or other emblazoned on the back of his vest.

 

I went incognito...

[+ honcho]

YES!!! To, again, all of this.

 

The First is just exactly as you say: too often underrated, viewed unjustly as repetition of near precursors, when in fact it already begins to show his titanic genius more than beginning to break out, far beyond of the molds of his recent forebears.

 

The First may not have been his "first" depending on your point of view ...

 

In 1794, six years before his first symphony wrote a piece that had 4 movements, was about 22 minutes long, having a first movement in sonata-allegro form, a slow movement, a scherzo, and a rondo last movement, all of which is really quite charming.

 

It was composed for two oboes and English horn. He wrote only one other work for that combination (variations on Mozart's aria La Ci Darem da Mano) and to my knowledge, wrote nothing else that used English horn, not even his opera fidelio. There is a stack of compositions two feet high by many other composers from around that period, but none of them have generated anywhere near the enthusiasm, and many people assume that all of the others were pale immitations of Beethovens. However, I found a SUNY master's report quoting a German textbook on chamber music that Beethoven was inspired to write the piece after hearing an established professional trio perform a work by Wendt during an evening of mixed chamber music.

 

If you look on youTube, you'll find it being performed by many different combinations, some expected (oboe , flute, clarinet), some quite bizarre (3 Double Basses). Apparently, during one of his many patches of financial stress, Beethoven's publisher persuaded him to publish it as a trio for two violins and viola as opus 87 (around 1811, I think).

 

I'm not familiar enough with all of Beethoven's chamber music to know whether or not he might have written *other* works of this scale prior to publishing his first symphony.

 

 

 

 

[TruHart1]

Well, I do not recall seeing many men in leather at the MET, but at Carnegie Hall... YES! Two guys... Leather chaps and vest... assless chaps, but jeans worn underneath... the whole nine yards... and it was at an Opera Orchestra of NY performance of Rossini's Otello if I recall correctly. Imagine that! Gay Leather men interested in opera and in Rossini no less, who woulda thunk!?!? They were sitting directly behind me. One had Mr. Fire Island 2000 something or other emblazoned on the back of his vest.

 

I went incognito...

...and you probably always buy a seat (no standing room for you!) when you do attend a MET performance! Back in the late 70's and the 80's, when I was much less financially secure and travelled to NYC to attend opera, before discovering my favorite hobby of hiring, I cut costs often by waiting on line in the morning to purchase a standing room slot for the evening performance. A few times, when the house was not fully sold, a nice usher would stop by at intermission and direct some of us to a vacant seat. Once I even met a nice old man who asked if I'd like to sit with him since his wife had been unable to attend. That was for a performance of Rigoletto with Sumi Jo!

 

One Saturday matinee of Levine conducting a full uncut Cosi Fan Tutte with Te Kanawa, though, (I still have a copy of the broadcast around here somewhere!) I almost collapsed from standing so long! I think the Wagner I saw in standing room was easier on me than that Cosi, simply because I expected to be standing a long time with a Wagnerian opera. Truly I do believe The Flying Dutchman with no intermissions (as the production was performed during those years) was easier to stand through than the that uncut Cosi!!!!

 

TruHart1

[whipped guy]

...and you probably always buy a seat (no standing room for you!) when you do attend a MET performance! Back in the late 70's and the 80's, when I was much less financially secure and travelled to NYC to attend opera, before discovering my favorite hobby of hiring, I cut costs often by waiting on line in the morning to purchase a standing room slot for the evening performance. A few times, when the house was not fully sold, a nice usher would stop by at intermission and direct some of us to a vacant seat. Once I even met a nice old man who asked if I'd like to sit with him since his wife had been unable to attend. That was for a performance of Rigoletto with Sumi Jo!

 

One Saturday matinee of Levine conducting a full uncut Cosi Fan Tutte with Te Kanawa, though, (I still have a copy of the broadcast around here somewhere!) I almost collapsed from standing so long! I think the Wagner I saw in standing room was easier on me than that Cosi, simply because I expected to be standing a long time with a Wagnerian opera. Truly I do believe The Flying Dutchman with no intermissions (as the production was performed during those years) was easier to stand through than the that uncut Cosi!!!!

 

TruHart1

I only did standing room a couple of time... once for an otherwise sold out Fille with Sutherland in the 1970's. The other fir a sold out Giovanni. I was in town and it was only sold out because Bryn Terfel was in the cast, but he canceled. Standing room were the only tickets available. Since he canceled there were a number of empty seats. However, there was a bitch of an usher who had eagle eyes and pulled people out of any seats that she knew were empty during the first act if she saw that the persons not in their standing room location. She also made sure that you stayed in your little assigned boxed in area. Talk about a Nazi mentality!