The organ

[+ g56whiz]

Well if I lived in Bayreuth, and someone gave me free tickets, then just possibly... However, my first impulse would be to scalp them...

 

And if I lived or could get to Bayreuth, I'd buy them. At my age it's probably the only way I could get there.

 

I learned long ago Wagner if divorced from Wagnerians is a worthy cultural pursuit. But it takes some preliminary homework. The narrative interwoven with the leitmotifs presents and onion of meanings the can be endlessly pealed. The reward is intellectual rather than emotional. Yes I enjoy Verdi but the reward is different.

 

Years ago an opera company out of Boston did a Ring Cycle at the Beacon Theater in NYC. I can remember that Roger Roloff was the Wotan (my spell check is smarter than yours ). I got to three (I think I missed the Die Walküre). The orchestra was pared down. As a result the singers did not have to strain to overpower it. What you heard was the context often missing of Wagner composing in the era of Bel Canto. It changed my perspective on Wagner.

 

Interestingly the subtitles in the MetOpera Live in HD Ring Cycle made these works even more approachable.

 

No I'm not a Wagnerian. The guys who show up at New York's Wagner Society in Loden coats truly scare me. ps. I was there at the invitation of a neighbor and friend who was lecturing.

[whipped guy]

And if I lived or could get to Bayreuth, I'd buy them. At my age it's probably the only way I could get there.

 

I learned long ago Wagner if divorced from Wagnerians is a worthy cultural pursuit. But it takes some preliminary homework. The narrative interwoven with the leitmotifs presents and onion of meanings the can be endlessly pealed. The reward is intellectual rather than emotional. Yes I enjoy Verdi but the reward is different.

 

Years ago an opera company out of Boston did a Ring Cycle at the Beacon Theater in NYC. I can remember that Roger Roloff was the Wotan (my spell check is smarter than yours ). I got to three (I think I missed the Die Walküre). The orchestra was pared down. As a result the singers did not have to strain to overpower it. What you heard was the context often missing of Wagner composing in the era of Bel Canto. It changed my perspective on Wagner.

 

Interestingly the subtitles in the MetOpera Live in HD Ring Cycle made these works even more approachable.

 

No I'm not a Wagnerian. The guys who show up at New York's Wagner Society in Loden coats truly scare me. ps. I was there at the invitation of a neighbor and friend who was lecturing.

I understand what you mean and when studied it's all so masterfully pieced together. I always marvel how you hear the leitmotiv that blossoms into gorgeous melody that is heard at the very conclusion of the cycle so early on in Die Walküre! The guy had a plan and followed through with it two and a half operas and many hours later. The catch is that for every big moment... one needs to sit though hours and hours of masterful but (sacrilegious statement coming here!) boring sections.

 

A friend who recently sat through the two and a half non-stop hours of Der Fliegende Holländer said it best. It's something that one needs to do before they get to the stage where that would need to wear Depends™. I think that says it all!

[body2body]

Yes as you say there is a time and place and life is certainly not long enough for Wagner!

 

Well, the closest that I came was sitting through two performances of Die Walküre... and believe me when I say that they were dropping like flies during the second act. The snoring was so loud that one could barely hear Wonton's (auto correct changed that and thinking it priceless I decided to keep it... but it's supposed to be "Woton's") narrative!

 

Well if I lived in Bayreuth, and someone gave me free tickets, then just possibly... However, my first impulse would be to scalp them...

I have attended two complete Rings. The first at the San Francisco Opera in 1985. It was wonderful. Conducted by Edo de Waart the orchestra was splendid. The production was quite traditional and the decors were based on the paintings of the 19th Century painter Caspar David Friedrich. The soloists included Rene Kollo, Gwyneth Jones, James Morris, Eva Marton, and Jeanine Altmeyer. I thoroughly enjoyed the Rheingold, Siegfried, and die Götterdämmerung, but the Walküre was hypnotic for all the wrong reasons. Even the stupendous singing of Gwyneth Jones was not enough to keep me from sleeping through part of it. The piece starts with a queasy incestuous romance and then an hour and a half of familial philosophy before you get to the glorious fire music. There was an unintentionally funny moment. At the end of Walküre it was Gwyneth Jones with her slight figure put to sleep in a white gown on the Rock and covered with her shield. In Siegfried, when he penetrated the fire and found the sleeping Brunhilde he lifted the Shield and says "Das ist kein mann"- this is not a man. The Brunhilde had changed to Eva Marton who possessed a pair of huge tits and the audience howled with laughter.

The dirty little secret about the ring as revealed by Anna Russell is that you can skip the first three operas and just see Götterdämmerung, by far the most dramatically compelling of the four, which starts with the Norns telling you the entire story.

[AdamSmith]

Listening closely, Katchen's use of pedal is similarly revelatory.

Listening some more, especially with the advantage of @whipped guy's astounding knowledge and background provided here, I think a lot of what I thought was pedal effect is actually mostly that superb control and subtlety of keyboard dynamics.

[AdamSmith]

I understand what you mean and when studied it's all so masterfully pieced together. I always marvel how you hear the leitmotiv that blossoms into gorgeous melody that is heard at the very conclusion of the cycle so early on in Die Walküre! The guy had a plan and followed through with it two and a half operas and many hours later. The catch is that for every big moment... one needs to sit though hours and hours of masterful but (sacrilegious statement coming here!) boring sections.

 

A friend who recently sat through the two and a half non-stop hours of Der Fliegende Holländer said it best. It's something that one needs to do before they get to the stage where that would need to wear Depends™. I think that says it all!

Wagner reminds of Dr Johnson's droll remark on Paradise Lost:

 

"None ever wished it longer."

 

 

[AdamSmith]

[AdamSmith]

Wondrous family bio.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Carter-Family-Their-Legacy-American/dp/074324382X

[+ g56whiz]

A friend who recently sat through the two and a half non-stop hours of Der Fliegende Holländer said it best. It's something that one needs to do before they get to the stage where that would need to wear Depends™. I think that says it all!

 

As someone who is fortunate to make it through the night with only one bathroom call I can relate. It was the live radio broadcast last Saturday and I listened to it all whilst driving from Laredo to San Antonio - 150 miles.

 

I don't fully understand stand why directors want to test the limits of nature. The old Ponnelle production was similarly done without intermission. The set was the Dutchman's ship which featured a structure at the prow (center stage rear) that looked like an outhouse whose door flapped seemingly at random throughout. That I recall that outhouse and the lack of intermissions rather than the singers and the performances shows the danger in such silly affections.

[AdamSmith]

Nor did they at all lack humor and fun and silliness!

 

 

And pretty sharp social satirical insight at the same time.

 

These songs are of course as noted by @whipped guy above Appalachian mountain (and gradually other sources) folk tunes.

[whipped guy]

I have attended two complete Rings. The first at the San Francisco Opera in 1985. It was wonderful. Conducted by Edo de Waart the orchestra was splendid. The production was quite traditional and the decors were based on the paintings of the 19th Century painter Caspar David Friedrich. The soloists included Rene Kollo, Gwyneth Jones, James Morris, Eva Marton, and Jeanine Altmeyer. I thoroughly enjoyed the Rheingold, Siegfried, and die Götterdämmerung, but the Walküre was hypnotic for all the wrong reasons. Even the stupendous singing of Gwyneth Jones was not enough to keep me from sleeping through part of it. The piece starts with a queasy incestuous romance and then an hour and a half of familial philosophy before you get to the glorious fire music. There was an unintentionally funny moment. At the end of Walküre it was Gwyneth Jones with her slight figure put to sleep in a white gown on the Rock and covered with her shield. In Siegfried, when he penetrated the fire and found the sleeping Brunhilde he lifted the Shield and says "Das ist kein mann"- this is not a man. The Brunhilde had changed to Eva Marton who possessed a pair of huge tits and the audience howled with laughter.

The dirty little secret about the ring as revealed by Anna Russell is that you can skip the first three operas and just see Götterdämmerung, by far the most dramatically compelling of the four, which starts with the Norns telling you the entire story.

Well I saw Gweneth Jones in Die Walküre as well and she acted the part as a totally convincing Tom boy of a Valkyrie and especially regarding how she wielded her spear.

 

Well here's another dirty little secret about the Ring. If Brunhilde had paid attention as a child Woton would not have had to explain to her everything that happened during Das Reingold and before. That would have eliminated Woton's narrative and cut quite a chunk out of the overly lengthy second act... where most folks seem to loose it! As you say hypnotic for all the wrong reasons!!! The second act starts so promisingly and then fizzles out. At least the third act more or less commands your attention.

 

Another dirty little secret. Not sure if they still do it, but Yale used to offer free tickets to MET HD performances. Even though I had connections for tickets, I decided that it would be easier to simply wander in time to just catch Act Three when they did Walküre a while back as that's was just enough to satisfy me. Of course I missed Jonas Kaufman as Siegmund, but thems the breaks!

 

Listening some more, especially with the advantage of @whipped guy's astounding knowledge and background provided here, I think a lot of what I thought was pedal effect is actually mostly that superb control and subtlety of keyboard dynamics.

 

In the Classical period... and that includes most of Beethoven... the less pedal the better. Of course it is necessary in certain passages and especially where arpeggios are involved! Plus pedals had different effects in those days and that is partly because the instruments were strung differently. A modern instrument has more resonance so there is less need for a damper pedal for example. In later music it's a different story when harmonies would tend to blend and blur and that would be enhanced by the pedal. Plus, the pedal is necessary to fill in the sound so as to make things sound... well plusher and more "romantic". In leaner classical structures that is not something that is desirable at least in my book.

 

Also the pedal is a blurring crutch for not playing with a true legato. I find it best to learn a classical period piece sans pedal and then apply it only where it can enhance the piece. Plus, if you look at how Mozart for example uses ties and structures things, there is often little need for the pedal to create a seamless effect and especially in slow movements.

[+ g56whiz]

The dirty little secret about the ring as revealed by Anna Russell is that you can skip the first three operas and just see Götterdämmerung, by far the most dramatically compelling of the four, which starts with the Norns telling you the entire story.

 

One of her best lines: "Albrecht! You remember Albrecht!!"

[whipped guy]

As someone who is fortunate to make it through the night with only one bathroom call I can relate. It was the live radio broadcast last Saturday and I listened to it all whilst driving from Laredo to San Antonio - 150 miles.

 

I don't fully understand stand why directors want to test the limits of nature. The old Ponnelle production was similarly done without intermission. The set was the Dutchman's ship which featured a structure at the prow (center stage rear) that looked like an outhouse whose door flapped seemingly at random throughout. That I recall that outhouse and the lack of intermissions rather than the singers and the performances shows the danger in such silly affections.

Well that was Wagner's original intention to have things flow together with out pause and only later did he chop things into indivdusl acts. Plus that the way it's done in Bayreuth from what I gather.

 

What confounds me is that the MET will not cut a semiquaver from Wagner, but will gladly excise reams from pieces of other composers. To prevent a riot by the true Wagnerians????

[+ g56whiz]

What confounds me is that the MET will not cut a semiquaver from Wagner, but will gladly excise reams from pieces of other composers. To prevent a riot by the true Wagnerians????

 

Not wholly so. Decades ago the Met scheduled Die Meistersinger in the first weeks of the season. The problem was that it had engaged a number of singers who had not previously sung their roles at the Met and different houses observe differing cut in Die Meistersinger. To teach all the new singers the cuts the Met used would have eaten up all rehearsal time. So the first several performance were done wholly uncut including Hans Sachs eerie 3rd act pean to German culture frequently cut after WWII. The orchestra earned a lot of OT those weeks.

[AdamSmith]

[AdamSmith]

[AdamSmith]

[AdamSmith]

[AdamSmith]

[AdamSmith]

[AdamSmith]

[AdamSmith]

Odd I had never thought to look up Schuppanzigh's full bio before, only bits & snatches.

 

...Schuppanzigh's dedication to quartet playing played a pivotal role in the transition of quartet performance and composition. Prior to Beethoven, the quartet repertoire could be performed competently by good quality amateurs and by professionals with few rehearsals. Beethoven's quartets introduced many new technical difficulties that cannot be completely overcome without dedicated rehearsal. These difficulties include synchronized complex runs played by two or more instruments together, cross-rhythms and hemiolas, and difficult harmonies that require special attention to intonation. When Schuppanzigh complained to Beethoven about a particularly difficult passage, Beethoven is said to have remarked, "Do you believe that I think about your miserable fiddle when the muse strikes me?"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Schuppanzigh

[AdamSmith]

LMAO! Only our Ludwig van!

 

...He [schuppanzigh] is said to have dragged Beethoven to a brothel, incurring Beethoven's wrath. Schuppanzigh avoided Beethoven for months afterward.[3] Beethoven often joked about his corpulence, calling him 'My Lord Falstaff', a comment as much about his weight as about his ability to have a good time. Beethoven composed a short, comic choral piece dedicated to him, "Praise to the Fat One" ("Lob auf den Dicken").[4]

 

Schuppanzigh was reported to be a handsome youth, but in adult life became seriously obese. Toward the end of his life, Schuppanzigh's fingers reputedly grew so fat that he was unable to play in tune[citation needed]. He died of paralysis in Vienna.

[AdamSmith]

If I lived in Bayreuth, then just possibly...

I could possibly do it if I could sit with the Merkels to stay entertained, indeed just awake, with small talk during the long dull stretches.

 

http://intermezzo.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834ff890853ef017743a1612b970d-pi

 

Although on reflection one doubts the quantum chemist would stoop to, or indeed is capable of, small talk.

 

[whipped guy]

A theory: I think the more that Wagner is mentioned Mr. Smith will post The Carters as a corrective measure!

 

It reminds me of the person who posed the question: Which is a greater piece of music Mahler's Ninth or The Beauiful Blue Danube by Johann Strauss Jr. In culinary terms that might be like comaring the perfect Chateaubriand to the perfect three minute egg. Yet a case can be made for both types of perfection. Plus, I wonder which composition has given the most pleasure over the years as that might be another measurement to consider.

 

Oh, and regarding Mr. Smith, could he really be a closet fan of the Beverly Hillbillies as well, and all his mention of Goethe and Bach just a smokescreen. I wonder!

[AdamSmith]

Oh, and regarding Mr. Smith, could he really be a closet fan of the Beverly Hillbillies as well, and all his mention of Goethe and Bach just a smokescreen. I wonder!

LOL! Need you ask!

 

http://happyhourpal.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/moonshine.jpg

 

But even above that...

 

 

...and towering over them all!