Beethoven 9

[AdamSmith]

If you like this kind of thing, here is Beethoven's 9th, in possibly the canonical performance, by the Vienna Philharmonic led by Bernstein in 1970:

 

[whipped guy]

I thought Lenny (who was quite flamboyant throughout) was going to collapse at the very end. Also the delay in applause was interesting... Some would say overblown by HIP (Historically Informed Performance) standards, but quite valid and a classic. The singers were certainly a powerful contingent! Definitely our father's Beethoven, which is what I was brought up on.

[+ sync]

I thoroughly enjoyed it despite my ADD having me occasionally longing for four or six of the chairs that supported the soloists and members of the orchestra.

[AdamSmith]

I thought Lenny (who was quite flamboyant throughout) was going to collapse at the very end. Also the delay in applause was interesting... Some would say overblown by HIP (Historically Informed Performance) standards, but quite valid and a classic. The singers were certainly a powerful contingent! Definitely our father's Beethoven, which is what I was brought up on.

LOL! Yes, well, I should have specified 'possibly the canonical performance within the genre of Viennese lushness tending toward bombast.'

 

Speaking of HIP, I recently came across this interesting observation about Ernest Ansermet's Beethoven performance style, in a review specifically of his recording of the 9th, which you mentioned owning (and suffering from London's ridiculous speeding-up to squeeze it onto just two sides!):

 

...In terms of interpretation and realization of his musical goals, Maestro Ansermet was very fortunate in recording his cycle of Beethoven Symphonies with the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande, an ensemble founded by Maestro Ansermet in 1918 and shaped by his artistic ideals during the forty-nine years of his tenure as the Orchestra’s director. The unity of approach throughout the Ninth Symphony’s four movements is impressive, with no single movement being given greater emphasis. The sonorities produced by the Orchestra are unique: from the very first note, the listener is keenly aware that this performance is not coming from Vienna or Berlin. String and woodwind tones are thinner than in the famous German-speaking orchestras, and there is greater focus on producing a blended sound that encourages an anonymity of individual instruments except in solo passages. This approach is similar but not identical to the way in which Maestro Ansermet conducted his remarkable recorded performances of modern French and Francophile repertory (de Falla, Ravel, Stravinsky, and the like). There is a small concession to Viennese tradition, but the style remains very much Maestro Ansermet’s. Despite sounding very different from most German orchestras and the imitative American and British ensembles that play the Symphony, the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande play very well, facing every challenge with musical integrity that reveals to the listener that emotional engagement with the score is far more meaningful than virtuosity for its own sake.

 

Some critics have suggested during the past two decades that Maestro Ansermet’s conducting of Beethoven was ahead of its time in the sense that his work resembles that of the later breed of ‘historically-informed’ conductors who seek to restore nineteenth-century practices to modern performances of Beethoven’s music. The inspiration for these observations is evident in the first movement [Allego ma non troppo, un poco maestoso]. There is a consistent drive for clarity among instrumental textures, with tempi gauged to generate momentum without sacrificing precision and rhythmic buoyancy. Unlike many latter-day conductors who have justified similar approaches by citing scholars’ opinions, Maestro Ansermet undoubtedly drew his insights from the score. Rather than consciously striving to pioneer a restoratively ‘informed’ performance philosophy, Maestro Ansermet was conducting as he felt that the music itself dictated.

http://www.voix-des-arts.com/2009/10/cd-review-ludwig-van-beethoven-symphony.html

[AdamSmith]

P.S. Lenny led a performance of the 9th in 1989 to mark the fall of the Berlin Wall...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IInG5nY_wrU

 

...which is utterly different from the 1970 performance in the OP. The later one to me seems very stiff, oddly mannered, full of eccentricities I don't get.

[AdamSmith]

P.P.S. I just noticed the announcer voicing the lead-in to the above 1989 performance is exactly what the Announcer is modeling/mocking in Rowan Atkinson's inspired parody...

 

[TruHart1]

I thought Lenny (who was quite flamboyant throughout) was going to collapse at the very end. Also the delay in applause was interesting... Some would say overblown by HIP (Historically Informed Performance) standards, but quite valid and a classic. The singers were certainly a powerful contingent! Definitely our father's Beethoven, which is what I was brought up on.

Bernstein's conducting of this Beethoven 9th in a 'performance within the genre of Viennese lushness tending toward bombast' is, IMO. the pinnacle of romantic (as opposed to classical) Beethoven. Add Dame Gwyneth, always a force of nature, Shirley Verrett, a powerful and non-pareil mezzo-cum-soprano, Domingo in his baritonal prime (when he was actually still a tenor!) and Martti Talvela, a bass who could physically "shake the house" with his voice, and you indeed have a defining performance of this most monumental of all Beethoven's symphonies!!!

 

TruHart1

[whipped guy]

LOL! Yes, well, I should have specified 'possibly the canonical performance within the genre of Viennese lushness tending toward bombast.'

 

Speaking of HIP, I recently came across this interesting observation about Ernest Ansermet's Beethoven performance style, in a review specifically of his recording of the 9th, which you mentioned owning (and suffering from London's ridiculous speeding-up to squeeze it onto just two sides!):

 

...In terms of interpretation and realization of his musical goals, Maestro Ansermet was very fortunate in recording his cycle of Beethoven Symphonies with the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande, an ensemble founded by Maestro Ansermet in 1918 and shaped by his artistic ideals during the forty-nine years of his tenure as the Orchestra’s director. The unity of approach throughout the Ninth Symphony’s four movements is impressive, with no single movement being given greater emphasis. The sonorities produced by the Orchestra are unique: from the very first note, the listener is keenly aware that this performance is not coming from Vienna or Berlin. String and woodwind tones are thinner than in the famous German-speaking orchestras, and there is greater focus on producing a blended sound that encourages an anonymity of individual instruments except in solo passages. This approach is similar but not identical to the way in which Maestro Ansermet conducted his remarkable recorded performances of modern French and Francophile repertory (de Falla, Ravel, Stravinsky, and the like). There is a small concession to Viennese tradition, but the style remains very much Maestro Ansermet’s. Despite sounding very different from most German orchestras and the imitative American and British ensembles that play the Symphony, the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande play very well, facing every challenge with musical integrity that reveals to the listener that emotional engagement with the score is far more meaningful than virtuosity for its own sake.

 

Some critics have suggested during the past two decades that Maestro Ansermet’s conducting of Beethoven was ahead of its time in the sense that his work resembles that of the later breed of ‘historically-informed’ conductors who seek to restore nineteenth-century practices to modern performances of Beethoven’s music. The inspiration for these observations is evident in the first movement [Allego ma non troppo, un poco maestoso]. There is a consistent drive for clarity among instrumental textures, with tempi gauged to generate momentum without sacrificing precision and rhythmic buoyancy. Unlike many latter-day conductors who have justified similar approaches by citing scholars’ opinions, Maestro Ansermet undoubtedly drew his insights from the score. Rather than consciously striving to pioneer a restoratively ‘informed’ performance philosophy, Maestro Ansermet was conducting as he felt that the music itself dictated.

http://www.voix-des-arts.com/2009/10/cd-review-ludwig-van-beethoven-symphony.html

Ironically it was the Ansermet recording that my father purchased for me as a Christmas present in 1963. So in the literal sense this was really my father's Beethoven, not Lenny, Von Karajan, or Furtwängler! As such compared to most other performances it sounded "different" and I always thought that it was lacking something. Of course later on I learned about the speeding up to make it fit on one LP. However, as I became more familiar with a more HIP approach I realized how far ahead of the times Ansermet was. Incidentally, the same could be said regarding Pierre Monteux and his approach to Haydn.

 

So to Herr Smith... I am so happy that you posted about Ansermet! I had not previously read what you quoted, but it represents my feelings perfectly!

[body2body]

I've always loved Ansermet's approach. I have vinyl recordings of him conducting Stravinsky, de Falla, and Ravel that I still play from time to time. His recording of Le Baiser de la Fée, is for me, definitive. I also think we can thank him for showing the path that would be followed by Sir Colin Davis, Pierre Boulez, and Esa-Pekka Salonen. All of whom are favorite conductors of mine.

[Despardo]

I like John Elliot Gardener's reading. Prefer the faster tempos (Beethoven himself was very particular on that point.) For the same reason, I also like Toscanini who was into that before it became trendy. I also like performances where the vocal soloists blend well in the last movement where the vocal writing is all but downright impossible. (And a tenor who doesn't choke on his solo--poor guy.)

[Despardo]

P.S. Lenny led a performance of the 9th in 1989 to mark the fall of the Berlin Wall...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IInG5nY_wrU

 

...which is utterly different from the 1970 performance in the OP. The later one to me seems very stiff, oddly mannered, full of eccentricities I don't get.

Lenny's conducting became more eccentric as he aged--got slower and slower and slower and more mannered and out of the mainstream. Sometimes it works--the Mahler 9th for example. Sometimes it doesn't--the Mahler 2nd for example.

[AdamSmith]

I like John Elliot Gardener's reading. Prefer the faster tempos (Beethoven himself was very particular on that point.) For the same reason, I also like Toscanini who was into that before it became trendy. I also like performances where the vocal soloists blend well in the last movement where the vocal writing is all but downright impossible. (And a tenor who doesn't choke on his solo--poor guy.)

Thanks for the Gardener referral.

 

Toscanini though really pushes it beyond reason, to my ear. Not so much the extreme clarity and astringency of tone of his orchestra and studio, but just his tempos in the 9th.

 

Re: the vocal writing, Beethoven is on record somewhere saying that was harder for him than instrumental writing. He said he knew some of the latter was very difficult to perform, but only when writing for voice did he ever stop to think, "Can they sing this?"

[bostonman]

Shirley Verrett, a powerful and non-pareil mezzo-cum-soprano

 

True...but the alto (or mezzo) soloist in the Beethoven 9th has NO moments to shine. None. Obviously you can't do the piece without the part there, but all that really matters is that she has the vocal heft to match the other 3 soloists. You'd think Beethoven woulda given her something...

 

Re: the vocal writing, Beethoven is on record somewhere saying that was harder for him than instrumental writing. He said he knew some of the latter was very difficult to perform, but only when writing for voice did he ever stop to think, "Can they sing this?"

 

Some of it - no, they can't, lol. And it's not just the rangy stuff, sometimes it's the instrumental quality of the writing. A prime example of something almost impossible and yet so buried that it's almost impossible to hear is a fast passage, sung twice, right near the end. It happens at 1:15:00 in the Bernstein video at the top of the thread. While the sopranos hold onto one high note, the other parts are scrambling through a very tough moving line, with some crazy jumps to be sung at such a fast pace.

[whipped guy]

I have always found Beethoven's vocal writing, be it choral or solo, to be very instrumental in nature and especially in Fidelio and that is what makes it so difficult. What is interesting is that during the same time frame Rossini was composing operas with different types of vocal challenges, a difficulty that while more technical in nature flowed naturally and was not cumbersome or clumsy as was Beethoven's.

 

What is interesting is that during the composition of the Ninth Beethoven meet Rossini in Vienna and mentioned that he was familiar with his operas. It is also interesting to note that during that timeframe Rossini's operas were quite popular in Vienna and the singers who participated in the premiere of the Ninth had performed much Rossini. However, the Italian style seems to have made no impression on Beethoven or for that matter a composer such a Weber who was also active composing operas at that point in time.

 

Regarding tempos in Beethoven, Beethoven's own metronome markings indicate very swift speeds. It has been argued that Beethoven had a defective metronome or didn't know how to use it. Some have compared the relationship of the speeds in each movement of each symphony as an indication of how the speeds in each movement should relate to the other movements as being a better interpretation of Beethoven's metronome markings.

 

Let's just say that those such as Furtwängler and company are on another planet. Still, we are richer for having the ability to experience Furtwängler, Bernstein, etc. as well as Gardner, Norrington, etc.

[AdamSmith]

To hijack or at least go on a tangent, the general topic of Beethoven and difficulty always brings to mind the classic remark by some musician about the late quartets when they were first published: "We know there is something there, but we do not know what it is."

[whipped guy]

My favorite quote comparing Beethoven to Rossini:

 

The point is... a person feels good listening to Rossini. All you feel like listening to Beethoven is going out and invading Poland. Ode to Joy indeed. The man didn't even have a sense of humor. I tell you... there is more of the Sublime in the snare-drum part of the La Gazza Ladra than in the whole Ninth Symphony.

-- Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow (1973)

 

Incidentally, Glimmerglass Opera in Cooperstown, NY is currently performing La Gazza Ladra. I am seeing it this weekend. It's bucket list material for opera buffs. I'll let you know how that snare drum part affects me!

[bostonman]

What is interesting is that during the same time frame Rossini was composing operas with different types of vocal challenges, a difficulty that while more technical in nature flowed naturally and was not cumbersome or clumsy as was Beethoven's.

 

A prime example of something that rarely (if ever?) gets sung accurately in Rossini (in music heard quite often) is the final section of the Act I Finale of The Barber Of Seville. Rossini writes a series of fast triplet figures - first and 3rd notes the same, 2nd note a pitch lower - that, at the speed the music is generally taken, is traditionally "faked" by the singers all just leaving out the middle notes.

 

Regarding tempos in Beethoven, Beethoven's own metronome markings indicate very swift speeds. It has been argued that Beethoven had a defective metronome or didn't know how to use it. Some have compared the relationship of the speeds in each movement of each symphony as an indication of how the speeds in each movement should relate to the other movements as being a better interpretation of Beethoven's metronome markings.

 

There was that rather controversial recording done some years ago by Benjamin Zander, who tried to "re-interpret" the tempo and metronome markings and to attempt to get inside Beethoven's head to determine what he thought the composer really wanted. I haven't listened to that recording for a long time - but I remember thinking some of it worked, some of it not so much, and some of it was rather amusing (like the lightning speed bassoon playing in the 2nd theme of the Scherzo - which of course, could have been exactly what Beethoven was hoping for, given the word "scherzo" - my question is whether or not the players available to him would really have been able to do it that cleanly that fast).

[gallahadesquire]

I have always found Beethoven's vocal writing, be it choral or solo, to be very instrumental in nature and especially in Fidelio and that is what makes it so difficult. What is interesting is that during the same time frame Rossini was composing operas with different types of vocal challenges, a difficulty that while more technical in nature flowed naturally and was not cumbersome or clumsy as was Beethoven's.

 

What is interesting is that during the composition of the Ninth Beethoven meet Rossini in Vienna and mentioned that he was familiar with his operas. It is also interesting to note that during that timeframe Rossini's operas were quite popular in Vienna and the singers who participated in the premiere of the Ninth had performed much Rossini. However, the Italian style seems to have made no impression on Beethoven or for that matter a composer such a Weber who was also active composing operas at that point in time.

 

Regarding tempos in Beethoven, Beethoven's own metronome markings indicate very swift speeds. It has been argued that Beethoven had a defective metronome or didn't know how to use it. Some have compared the relationship of the speeds in each movement of each symphony as an indication of how the speeds in each movement should relate to the other movements as being a better interpretation of Beethoven's metronome markings.

 

Let's just say that those such as Furtwängler and company are on another planet. Still, we are richer for having the ability to experience Furtwängler, Bernstein, etc. as well as Gardner, Norrington, etc.

 

Have you ever tried singing Beethoven? He had no idea of how to write for the voice. The ranges are all over the place, and there are intervals that hadn't been heard since the Big Bang.

 

Mahler was incredible at writing vocal parts. In the 9th, he eventually gets the top tenor part (of four, in the chorus) up to C above middle C. To do so, he uses the previous ten minutes of singing [virtually non-stop] to get the tenors to the A above middle C. Once he gets the tenors there, here never takes them below middle C. Good vocal writing! Great fun, too, if you have a C above C in your range.

 

Beethoven just didn't get it. He wrote what he thought would sound good. I was in teh chorus for Lennie's performance of Missa Solemnes at Tanglewood in the early '70's. [There are many tales about that performance!]. The choral director, John Oliver, wound up re-writing the choral parts so they could actually be sung.

In the Tanglewood Chorus in those days [when I was the youngest member!], we would always attempt to sight-read the locgical section of a piece, so the Choral director could figure out where it needed work. ABout half-way through the Fugue in the Creed, he realized that

no one was singing

, becaue we haad all gotten lost. "Well, we'll have to work on that a bit more."

Just to note in passing: Bach knew very well how to write for voice. He just ignored it, as the music came first. Case in point: The alto solo, Esurientes, in his Magnificat, and its incredibly long melisma,;or the Tenor solo De Posuit.

Stravinsky, it might be said, just didn't know how to write music.

[whipped guy]

A prime example of something that rarely (if ever?) gets sung accurately in Rossini (in music heard quite often) is the final section of the Act I Finale of The Barber Of Seville. Rossini writes a series of fast triplet figures - first and 3rd notes the same, 2nd note a pitch lower - that, at the speed the music is generally taken, is traditionally "faked" by the singers all just leaving out the middle notes.

 

 

 

There was that rather controversial recording done some years ago by Benjamin Zander, who tried to "re-interpret" the tempo and metronome markings and to attempt to get inside Beethoven's head to determine what he thought the composer really wanted. I haven't listened to that recording for a long time - but I remember thinking some of it worked, some of it not so much, and some of it was rather amusing (like the lightning speed bassoon playing in the 2nd theme of the Scherzo - which of course, could have been exactly what Beethoven was hoping for, given the word "scherzo" - my question is whether or not the players available to him would really have been able to do it that cleanly that fast).

 

There is also the final section of Figaro's infamous aria where the triplets are modified or faked... One of the la la ran triplets becomes a simple la. Also at the very end of the aria the triplets are often ignored. Well not really triplets as it is in 6/8 time, but you get the idea where the three eighth notes become dotted quarter notes.

 

I have not heard Zander's traversal of the nine, but it certainly got mixed reviews.

[bostonman]

Just to note in passing: Bach knew very well how to write for voice. He just ignored it, as the music came first. Case in point: The alto solo, "Esurientes," in his Magnificat, and its incredibly long melisma,;or the Tenor solo "Deposuit."

 

Back when I was much younger and really wanted to grow up to be a classical singer, lol, I used to sing the "Deposuit." Tricky indeed, but by no means impossible lol. (My problem wasn't so much with the melismatic writing, but with the low range of the opening phrases - rather low for the average tenor.) And with the "Esurientes," I think you just gotta pick places to breathe and go with it.

 

If you're familiar with the Bach Cantata 106 ("Gottes Zeit"), you may remember a section for bass vocal solo with a wonderful recorder obbligato ("Bestelle Dein Haus") where the recorder has a similar challenge - often no places to breathe. It would seem more suitable for keyboard or a string instrument (though it does sound great on recorder). Bach scores it for 2 recorder players in unison, so clearly the intention was to "stagger breathe" with each other, so that the effect would be a seamless line, giving each player a chance to grab quick breaths during the long lines of 16th notes.

[whipped guy]

Have you ever tried singing Beethoven? He had no idea of how to write for the voice. The ranges are all over the place, and there are intervals that hadn't been heard since the Big Bang.

Just to note in passing: Bach knew very well how to write for voice. He just ignored it, as the music came first. Case in point: The alto solo, Esurientes, in his Magnificat, and its incredibly long melisma,;or the Tenor solo De Posuit.

Stravinsky, it might be said, just didn't know how to write music.

 

Spot on regarding Beethoven and Stravinsky. Regarding Bach, there are instances, and especially in contrapuntal passages where he asks for a note that was either not possible to play or very difficult to play simply because that was the proper note for that passage. Music first, someone will invent a new instrument to play it... Or struggle to try and get it done...

[bostonman]

Re Stravinsky, and as long as we're talking abut choral/vocal writing, I don't see the complaints, lol. My father introduced me to the Symphony Of Psalms when I was a young musician (he had the miniature full score, from having studied the piece as a college music student, and I remember following along as I listened) - and it's still among my favorite choral pieces ever. I would also cite his Oedipus Rex as a huge favorite. The music is NOT bad to sing (given the proper training, of course, and good ears), and as much as he was often trying to write dispassionately, I really find so much drama and emotion in his music. I also remember trying to get into The Rake's Progress in my early teens, and though I thought the music was fun, I wasn't yet old enough to understand the very wry sophisticated wit that it lives on. (And I still respond more to pieces like the Symphony Of Psalms and Oedipus Rex, though I certainly appreciate The Rake's Progress a lot more now.) We also sang his Mass in college, which was a fun piece to negotiate.

[gallahadesquire]

Re Stravinsky, and as long as we're talking abut choral/vocal writing, I don't see the complaints, lol. My father introduced me to the Symphony Of Psalms when I was a young musician (he had the miniature full score, from having studied the piece as a college music student, and I remember following along as I listened) - and it's still among my favorite choral pieces ever. I would also cite his Oedipus Rex as a huge favorite. The music is NOT bad to sing (given the proper training, of course, and good ears), and as much as he was often trying to write dispassionately, I really find so much drama and emotion in his music. I also remember trying to get into The Rake's Progress in my early teens, and though I thought the music was fun, I wasn't yet old enough to understand the very wry sophisticated wit that it lives on. (And I still respond more to pieces like the Symphony Of Psalms and Oedipus Rex, though I certainly appreciate The Rake's Progress a lot more now.) We also sang his Mass in college, which was a fun piece to negotiate.

 

try singing Canticum Sacrum. You can use Orlando de Lassus' Prophetiae Sybyllarum as a warmup.

[bostonman]

Ha! I've heard the Canticum Sacrum but never tried to sing it. We did do some diLasso in college - I think it was the motets on Jeremiah - plus a whole set of his madrigals. I'm trying to remember if we ever did any Gesualdo, or if we just studied his stuff in class.

 

Possibly the toughest thing we did in college was a Webern piece called "Entflieht Auf Leichten Kahnen" - whoa...

[TruHart1]

Have you ever tried singing Beethoven? He had no idea of how to write for the voice. The ranges are all over the place, and there are intervals that hadn't been heard since the Big Bang...

 

I agree that the vocal writing in the 9th symphony is written as if he expected the entire tenor section (the only part I sang in the work) in the final movement to all be Lauritz Melchior voices! As for Fidelio, there are a few ensembles in that opera that are amazing; Mir ist so Wunderbar reaches a height of canonic music that seems otherworldly at times, for instance. Also, having sung in Beethoven's early but one and only sacred oratorio, Christus am Ölberge (Christ on the Mount of Olives), I found the choral writing much more accessible and the solo writing more lyrical in this piece.

 

For those interested, who may be unfamiliar with this fine, relatively short early work, (opus #85 but actually should have been lower since it was not published until 10 years after he wrote it in 1802-03 and revised it in 1811!) here's a fine performance with Julie Fuchs; soprano, Pavol Breslik; tenor, Konstantin Wolff; bass and Cercle de l'Harmonie Conducted by Jérémie Rhorer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhqJ3EBn2Io

 

Perhaps part of his "failure" in much of his vocal writing had to do with his progressive deafness, which continued over his lifetime?

 

TruHart1