Question for escorts, does it all fuck up your mind?

[Amoco]

First of all, kudos to Danny for being direct and honest. There are times when I think it would be the greatest job in the world, and other times, I think it's the loneliest. How many times in the past year or two have we all dealt with the premature loss of an escort?

 

Several months back, someone else highlighted a new well reviewed book entitled "Male Sex Workers and Society" by Municiello and Scott. I believe we all have some responsibility to take a look at this impressively deep and scientifically based work. And when you do, I suspect you'll find that there's both good news and bad news...that said, keep the following in mind:

 

1. Any generalization is going to be unfair to individuals. There are always statistical outliers.

2. Correlations are NOT causal.

3. Not all sex workers are created equal. There are many differences between "pros", hustlers and the college kid looking for some extra cash - yet technically, all are selling similar, though not the exactly the same products.

4. Science is not judgemental. Some of the issues raised can be difficult to hear, but barring any questions on their method, the facts are the facts.

[BaronArtz]

Well I am just delighted to read to some of you live in a rosy, smoke-filled LA-LA land where things like childhood abuse, rape, alcoholism and drug abuse simply do not exist.

 

There is ample research out there that shows a strong correlation between childhood abuse and prostitution. If you are just too lazy or too disinterested to google, to yahoo or to bing it - that's up to you.

 

For starters, you could take a look at this: http://womensissues.about.com/od/rapesexualassault/a/Wuornos.htm

 

or even this:

http://crime.about.com/od/prostitution/a/prostitution.htm

[Kevin Slater]

Well I am just delighted to read to some of you live in a rosy, smoke-filled LA-LA land where things like childhood abuse, rape, alcoholism and drug abuse simply do not exist.

 

There's a big difference between "not existing" and affecting the vast majority of a given population. If you are unable to understand that, don't accuse us of living in a LA-LA land.

 

But I am also aware of what the issues may be on the other side of the bed and try to be tactful about it.

 

You might want to try much harder, or quit trying at all.

 

Kevin Slater

[mike carey]

Well I am just delighted to read to some of you live in a rosy, smoke-filled LA-LA land where things like childhood abuse, rape, alcoholism and drug abuse simply do not exist.

 

There is ample research out there that shows a strong correlation between childhood abuse and prostitution. If you are just too lazy or too disinterested to google, to yahoo or to bing it - that's up to you.

 

I can accept that there is a correlation between abuse in general, not just childhood, and prostitution, or escorting. But I don't think that people who speak positively about their experience as escorts are in any sort of la-la land of denial. To me that creates a false binary.

 

Even if there is a correlation between abuse and escorting, that doesn't mean that the reverse is true. Just because a lot of people who were abused end up in escorting does not mean that most or even many escorts were abused. To claim that the causation works both ways to me seems to be the equivalent of slut shaming. It implies that escorts who made rational decisions to enter the business are really denying abuse in their past, and asserts that they do not have autonomy in their current actions.

 

The balance of experience may be different for male and female sex workers, there is exploitation and human trafficking in both. But that does not mean that there is not a significant number of smart, grounded men out there reading this forum and advertising their services, who made rational decisions to be here and who are definitely not damaged goods.

[Guest Starbuck]

Seriously now ... I mean, SERIOUSLY ... can't we (don't we) ALL AGREE that childhood abuse, rape, alcoholism and drug abuse are real problems worthy of concern and compassion WITHOUT stigmatizing a majority of escorts as the damaged victims of these problems?

[Guest countryboywny]

And so it goes. Child abuse, rape, drug abuse, alcoholism and on and on.. These are problems that infect our society as a whole, not just escorts, or clients, or homeless people, or rich people or you name it. There are people from every walk of life that are fucked up in one way or another from any number of causes. Do escorts have more than their share of messed up heads than the general population? I doubt it. This is why I hate generalizations..

[Amoco]

Just to clarify....

 

Being abused does not necessarily predict becoming an escort, but being an escort does seem to suggest a higher incidence of childhood abuse. Again, correlations aren't causal. My guess is that ANY outlier will show a higher incidence of childhood abuse. Including being a John.

 

You guys need to read the book - you're making some assumptions that don't turn out to be true....and for what it's worth, there's plenty of literature on Johns, too. Among the points that the book makes is that sex work is commoditizing the male body, that most sex workers are not deviants and actually skew more entrepreneurial, and that more and more younger guys are turning to it for money as a result of technology changing everything. Some of the other stuff Is there, too, but I suspect that most of you would be somewhat surprised to see the data. .

 

And once again, we're all in this together....

[+ quoththeraven]

Wow this post hit some nerves out there! Anyways it appears the replies took to the path of "why someone would want to become an escort" route. The question is really for those escorts who have been doing it for a while and has it affected your perspective on men, relationships, dating, sex, etc - outside of the escort work.

 

All due respect, that's not what you asked. Your initial question phrased things more pejoratively than that. A question phrased the way yours was invites exactly the response it received.

 

If I remember correctly, the book Amoco mentions was on the pricey side, but maybe I'll apply part of the gift card I just received from my internet/cable provider toward buying it. Statistics and actual data! Right up my alley. Which is why I'm such a big fan of Kevin Slater and his charts.

[jcmiami1]

Thanks guys for all the insight! And no, to the person who said I'm gathering information to write an article - I'm not!

These comments made me think lot about *myself* as being a client/"John". I was not abused in any way, nor was ever an addict. Yep I had relationships but I definitely have trust issues after being burnt so many times. Gay men can be vicious sometimes especially about looks. I'm a bearish type regular guy I'm no beauty but I'm not a "troll" either - some gay men have called me fat & ugly with no remorse because I'm assuming I don't fit that almost unachievable demand to look perfect by gay men ( look at personal ads with the infamous "must be vgl, 20-30 only, height/weight proportional etc) yea that fucked up mind somewhat.

So it comes down why I'm a "client." For me anyways, it's easier, you can meet a very hot man who will not place judgement on you even if it's all an money based acting job. You are not rejected or criticized or made to feel inferior. So yea I'm probably the fucked up one in all this but, yet again, we are all fucked up in someway. Anyways peace out - I'm ending this post on my side but feel free to continue posting for conversation.

[+ DickyF]

To those who believe most escorts are victims- why are you partaking then? How do you feel about doing that? Aren't you perpetrating the exploitation you believe most escorts live under?

 

As has been noted there are a wide variety of circumstances. There is a terrible sex slave trade that is apalling. There are desperate guys that get exploited. I would never take advantage of such a situation.

I don't ask for proof of their circumstances but everyone I hire charges $200-300 per hour, are not on drugs, look extremely healthy, dress well, and are not in any way desperate. It seems they could easily work another job (like waiting tables like I did at their age) but prefer this instead.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Well I am just delighted to read to some of you live in a rosy, smoke-filled LA-LA land where things like childhood abuse, rape, alcoholism and drug abuse simply do not exist.

You guys need to read the book - you're making some assumptions that don't turn out to be true....I suspect that most of you would be somewhat surprised to see the data. .

 

And once again, we're all in this together....

 

BaronArtz, I'm not sure if your dig is referring to me, or it just happened to be shortly after my entry to this thread. Anyway, I don't live in LA, I live in Palm Springs. But speaking of LA, anybody concerned about this topic has a great opportunity to put your cock in my mouth ...... um, excuse me (typo) ..... put your money where your mouth is and make a donation to the Sex Workers Outreach Project to help escorts with exactly the kinds of issues this thread focuses on:

 

http://www.companyofmen.org/threads/support-the-sex-workers-outreach-project-los-angeles.104785/

 

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sex-workers-outreach-project-at-pride-la/x/10824859#/story

 

Please check out what Danny and his partners in crime are working on, and if you haven't supported them yet, please do. I gave $200 so far, but that's just because I'm a rich whore in LA-LA land. Those of us who are not deserve support groups, access to health and legal services, and all the other things SWOP is doing.

 

As Amoco says, WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER :-)

 

Amoco, thanks for the book recommendation. I just ordered the book on Amazon. The review of it in LGBT Weekly says this: "it’s just way more academic than I expected, more than a curl-up-by-the-fireplace read should be." I was assuming it's NOT a hot and steamy porn read, but my point is that at over 500 pages and $50 or so soft cover, most people here probably won't order and read it.

 

You said some of what people said above are based on assumptions that the book shows don't turn out to be true, and that we might be somewhat surprised at the data. What you said about escorts being entrepreneurial and technology getting younger guys into it for money sure rings true to me. If you don't mind writing more, pretty please, I'd actually love to get a mouthful more from you of the assumptions that the book clarifies, and what data surprised you. I for one will read the book anyway, but it's always interesting to find out what other people found surprising, or changed their assumptions.

 

To single out one thing, I think my initial assumptions about male escorts were based on American Gigolo, which I saw when I was very young and actually just starting to come to terms with my own sexuality . If you take that as a fantasy, at some level I feel like I can be grateful I got to live out the fantasy, without any of the horror story parts.

 

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02822/american-gigolo-DI_2822874b.jpg

 

Now if I can just get an encore like Richard Gere did in a movie like Chicago. Maybe singing Razzle Dazzle:

 

What if your hinges all are rusting?

What if, in fact, you're just disgusting?

Razzle dazzle 'em

And they'll never catch wise!

 

After all, in youth and beauty wisdom is rare. :-) Oddly enough, being an older escort has helped me understand that.

 

 

 

Read more: Chicago The Musical - Razzle Dazzle Lyrics | MetroLyrics

[adannyboy]

re: the Book...

 

It's a LONG read, but it has some interesting historical text and lots of great info.

I've had it since september (it was a birthday gift from someone who knew my interest in the field) and no, it's not a "curl up by the fireplace read." I'm only half way through it eight months later. Still, good knowledge.

 

D

[ZhenXBear]

In all fairness its true I got so desperate a few months back I sold my kidney for meth

 

Chris, thank you. I truly appreciate it, too. I must say the anti-rejection drugs are working wonderfully and I am once again peeing with the virility of a race horse. Please do let me know if you're seriously considering parting with the liver lobe as my surgeon in Puerto Vallarta stands ready to assist with all future transactions. Once again, a pleasure doing business with you :p:p

[+ stevenkesslar]

It's a LONG read, but it has some interesting historical text and lots of great info.

 

Same to you Danny. You know me, I like epistles. If you have time I'd love to hear what some of the great info you took away is. I'm sure there's lots of interesting historical stuff but what I'd be most interested in hearing is your take on the + and - sides of sex work today as the folks who wrote the book see it, and the data that backs it up.

[TruHart1]

Chris, thank you. I truly appreciate it, too. I must say the anti-rejection drugs are working wonderfully and I am once again peeing with the virility of a race horse. Please do let me know if you're seriously considering parting with the liver lobe as my surgeon in Puerto Vallarta stands ready to assist with all future transactions. Once again, a pleasure doing business with you :p:p

 

;);) Triple like

 

Truhart1

[BaronArtz]

[quote="Kevin Slater, post: 966808, member: 4577"

 

There's a big difference between "not existing" and affecting the vast majority of a given population. If you are unable to understand that, don't accuse us of living in a LA-LA land.

 

You might want to try much harder, or quit trying at all.

 

Kevin Slater

 

It doesn't take much for you to show your true colors. Is there really a need to be so hostile about this? Not good for business.

[wayout]

Lots of interesting comments and views. I am interested in getting the book mentioned. I do believe that most of us here breathe the rarefied air that is probably best described as the "professional" escort, for lack of a better word, that tend to be on the higher end of the spectrum of those that offer their services/time. However, I have no allusions that there is a whole different level of prostitution that involves individuals dealing with psychological and chemical related issues (and I don't have any clue if there is causality relationship). I don't intend to speak for BaronArtz or others here, but I wonder if we are really talking about two different levels here.....and within each group, while there may be some crossover or similarities, we may see the specific aspects of the views being expressed here.

 

While I may never know or could ever know, the impact on the escort I am hiring, I do think that by hiring the "professional" escort, those that are typically well reviewed on this site for example, that I can be more comfortable doing what I do. And although other avenues are available for hiring, I choose not to do so because I feel I could be adding to some unfortunate situation an individual may have found themselves in. Hope that makes sense.

[wisconsinguy]

There is a now what is called a myth in psyc circles. The idea that a person who has been sexually abused, is most likely to commit sexual abuse. Of course if you watch any of the Law and Order, Special Victims Unit, it phrased out all the time. "Well, he was sexually abused, no wonder he did this." Many years ago I mentioned it to a a therapy person. He was quick to inform that simply was not true. In fact he said the opposite looks true. People that are sexually abused as kids, teens, entire professions, service groups, volunteer groups to help sexual abuse victims. Now, this did not take into consideration the consequences such a person might develop. Drug, alcohol, and all the other abuses out there. I have a few formal diagnosis of abuse. Two separate issue of sexual abuse from two different close blood relative, physical abuse, (grease poured on my head when I was one) by a crazy brother. Self abuse. The most unusual one, which I have never heard anyone mention, and it is a legit diagnosis, is "Institutional abuse." The one that still haunts me at times is the Institutional abuse. I worked as a dialysis nurse for a couple of years. I was "running" a patient one day, who had suffered every major complication from Juvenile Diabetes. Legally blind, lost one limp, the other would be lost soon, huge bed sores, lost a near term baby in utero,

and of course kidney failure. Physically she was still beautiful into her late 60's. As she was telling me her story, I had all I could do not to cry. Her last comment to me, and one that I have adapted for myself was, "But you know, God has been good to me." I could hardly talk.

 

I asked my friend if he ever felt treated "poorly." He had a hard time pulling one out of the hat. He said maybe a couple of clients were I think he said "distant." I am no way pointing fingers, this guy exemplifies not only sexiness, but caring for the all people he meets, his neighbors, and humanity. He walks with a cloud above him that exudes honesty, fun, concern, and a kind soul.

[TruHart1]

There is a now what is called a myth in psyc circles...etc.

 

I asked my friend if he ever felt treated "poorly." He had a hard time pulling one out of the hat. He said maybe a couple of clients were I think he said "distant." I am no way pointing fingers, this guy exemplifies not only sexiness, but caring for the all people he meets, his neighbors, and humanity. He walks with a cloud above him that exudes honesty, fun, concern, and a kind soul.

 

Wow. I just love your description of him here, WG2...so accurate.

 

TruHart1

[wisconsinguy]

I also like Kevin Slater's graphs, and his collection of data. He is one of those rare individuals when he reports numbers and data, I don't question the results. Plus, I do detect a sense of humor on occasion! Haha. I was waiting until this settled out before chimed in. Time for a list.

1) As already mentioned, the comments were sweeping generalities without any backup to substantiate.

2) The comments were derogatory to escorts.

3) The reference that a person is more likely to turn escorting if they were abused, still trying to figure that one out.

4) Regarding sexual data and reporting. What we know, believe, or think we believe about correlations between what befalls us on the negative part of life, and later consequences regarding our decisions as adults, is going to change.

5) As I said in a different post: The correlation between being sexually abused as a child, and turning into a predator themselves. It has little if anything to do with it. It was again, one of those unsubstantiated myths.

6) WG2's own little study. I only hang with one guy. Had the opportunity to meet quite a few last year in Chicago. Between that group, and what escorts post in the forum, it never crossed my mind that ANY of them are damaged. Great group of guys, right on with so many thoughts AND sexy suggestions!

7) We all come from a history.

8) We all breathe the same air.

9) We need to be civil and supportive of each other.

10 As clients, we need to double up on number 9 for our escorts. It will come to you over and over!

11) I am no more less or more than you are.

[+ quoththeraven]

In most cases, yes. In NY, Callan Lorde Community Health Center (http://callen-lorde.org/) organizes group discussion therapy sessions for escorts who are, for various reasons, clueless about how to leave the profession. It can be a real heart break hearing what is being discussed.

 

Think about what may drive people into this career. Often it is child abuse, growing up in a homophobic family, homelessness, drug or alcohol dependency and the lure of 'easy' money. Most guys (and girls) doing it had their mind fucked up before even starting to escort. Even for somebody in a stable mental state, the constant worry about 'will he show up?, 'will he attempt to abuse me?', 'will I get paid?' and so on is a continuous source of stress.

 

And then, as always, there are the exceptions. But there are not many of them.

 

Baron, your concern seems to be over the brokenness of escorts and kept boys because of power dynamics between them and their clients intersecting with their dark pasts when that's not what most of us see or experience. We see escorts who get stiffed and otherwise jerked around by inconsiderate clients and are occasionally hurt. But we also see clients who hire only to have the escort not show up, show up and not be the person they represented themselves as, or are scammers looking to rob and sometimes hurt the client.

 

None of those things seem to be on your radar. So pardon us, or at least me, for being a little skeptical of your definition of abuse.

 

Now, onto the proof. Those who called you on your imprecision (including Kevin Slater) were correct. You say that the majority of escorts are messed up emotionally or otherwise due to abuse and substance abuse problems. ("And then, as always, there are the exceptions. But there are not many of them.") No one's offere any such proof, nor do you offer any. (I'll get to the "proof" you offered in a minute.) To make these allegations without facts to back them up is poor form at best and scandalmongering at worst.

 

I'd also note that the escorts who seek help at places like Callan Lorde are going to be the ones who are having problems. It's a self-selecting, not random, group.

 

Then, when Kevin Slater tried to point out that you'd made assertions about rate of incidence and asked for your data, you pushed back:

 

But you also tried to quantify it:

 

 

Chris asks a good point: where do you get your data?

 

Kevin Slater

 

Well I am just delighted to read to some of you live in a rosy, smoke-filled LA-LA land where things like childhood abuse, rape, alcoholism and drug abuse simply do not exist.

 

There is ample research out there that shows a strong correlation between childhood abuse and prostitution. If you are just too lazy or too disinterested to google, to yahoo or to bing it - that's up to you.

 

For starters, you could take a look at this: http://womensissues.about.com/od/rapesexualassault/a/Wuornos.htm

 

or even this:

http://crime.about.com/od/prostitution/a/prostitution.htm

 

No one denies that there is abuse. But, reading between the lines, it seems to be associated with two things: the lower-end of the market, where people are escorting part-time for money but aren't looking at it as a profession and where the term "hustler" might be applicable, or more applicable, and pro escorts who are unable to draw lines for themselves and their clients. Because it's the inability to draw lines that will really fuck up the mind of someone who considers himself a professional escort, whether it's with regard to safe-sex practices, multiple clients (threesomes and so on), how to handle transference and other side effects of providing such intimate services, drugs, and other issues I as a non-escort I probably wouldn't even think of.

 

Unless you are willing to deny the statements of real, live, honest-to-goodness professional escorts such as those who have commented here or elsewhere on how and why they got involved in the business and that they enjoy it as much or more as any other jobs they've had, please refrain from making such sweeping generalizations. Your assertions may be correct with respect to runaways and informal escorts -- those who use escorting to bring in needed extra cash, and who are more likely to frequent A2A, Backpage, and Craigslist. As has been mentioned before, they're fundamentally different markets with different goals. Hiring pros means looking for a sure thing; hiring off A2A, BP, and CL means looking for that diamond in that rough and has much more of the sense of hunting and chasing. It probably also involves more of a concentration on young, good-looking men, who might be easier to exploit, than is the case with respect to pro escorts. And someone early in their career may be in a different place than an experienced escort.

 

It is terrible when anyone is exploited, and men (particularly young men who are good-looking enough to turn heads) aren't immune. But sugar daddy arrangements can be as exploitative as plying young men with drugs or going the Jason Crystal route.

 

Where you really fall down is by conflating the experience of male and female escorts. Simply by virtue of societal differences, men and women are treated differently. Female escorts are at much greater risk for abuse, rape, and stalking. Men are the default in society; women are the lesser and other. Statistics about them are not applicable to men.

 

The "data" you cite in the context of us living "in a rosy, smoke-filled LA-LA land where things like childhood abuse, rape, alcoholism and drug abuse simply do not exist" that "shows a strong correlation between childhood abuse and prostitution," with the clear implication being that this correlation is meaningful, is about female escorts. (P.S. -- Correlation does not prove causality.) Moreover, it's full of anti-sex work radical feminist rhetoric, which makes it of questionable objectivity.

 

We're not the ones who are too lazy or disinterested to google, yahoo, or bing it. Rather, you are the one who did so and came up with misleading, if not outright useless, information.

 

http://womensissues.about.com/od/rapesexualassault/a/Wuornos.htm

 

http://crime.about.com/od/prostitution/a/prostitution.htm[

 

 

So I completely understand and share Kevin Slater's exasperation with you cherry-picking irrelevant and not very meaningful data.

 

There's a big difference between "not existing" and affecting the vast majority of a given population. If you are unable to understand that, don't accuse us of living in a LA-LA land.

 

 

 

You might want to try much harder, or quit trying at all.

 

Kevin Slater

 

It doesn't take much for you to show your true colors. Is there really a need to be so hostile about this? Not good for business.

 

The rest of us know that Kevin is data-driven, as am I, as is Chris W. Kevin is right in asking for the backup to analyze whether you're right. And as Wisconsinguy says, studies suggest that childhood abuse is not associated with adult abuse in the way that we assume; I'm not familiar with the studies he cites, but this may be a matter of correlation that is not causal. As a healthcare professional who has shown great sensitivity toward the use of proper data (see the thread he started on the use of coffee) and knows what it's like to have problems with drug abuse that could have ended his healthcare career, I would take Wisconsinguy's word on this over yours any day.

 

In the end, it is you who looks bad, not the people at whom you've lashed out.

[mike carey]

Well said QTR. The faux concern, patronising and condescension had gone too far.

[BaronArtz]

QTR-sweetie, you clearly have too much time on your hands. It is time for you to develop a serious hobby. Like learning how to bake cookies or something.

[Guest countryboywny]

QTR-sweetie, you clearly have too much time on your hands. It is time for you to develop a serious hobby. Like learning how to bake cookies or something.

 

I thought QTR's response was well thought out and challenging. If you do not wish to defend your position, say so. It's fine. This thread has gotten a bit out of hand and I think it opened a can of worms that you possibly didn't expect. Answering a challenge with a snide personal remark is really bad form and hurts your credibility.

[Michael Wayne]

no!!! escorting is a piece of cake. Now GRIDER has literally driven a few of my clients and a couple of my friends CRAZY.... not making that up!