Cenerentola at the Met: An Aria Encore Friday Night

[+ Italiano]

Don't ever go to opera in Europe, as you will be very very disappointed.

 

Such a bizarre statement....If I have to make a statistic I have actually been disappointed more by operas that I have seen in the States than in Europe. But this doesn't take away the fact that I have seen and taken part to great productions in USA AND in Europe.

[MrMiniver]

Such a bizarre statement....If I have to make a statistic I have actually been disappointed more by operas that I have seen in the States than in Europe. But this doesn't take away the fact that I have seen and taken part to great productions in USA AND in Europe.

 

You obviously didn't read the full statement or what it was in reference to or you would have understood it.

[William]

Encore Possibilities Next Season?

 

Like other posters here, I saw the Met's production of Cenerentola--including one of the encore nights, which I found quite thrilling. And would love to see another encore at the Met (it's addictive).

 

What would be some good possibilities for that in the coming season? For example, Donna del Lago features Juan Diego Florez and Joyce DiDonato. I have never seen/heard this bel canto opera: Any possibilities here? (It seems like bel canto operas with powerful tenors offer the best chances for an encore at the Met.)

 

Any other possibilities?

 

Addictively yours . . . .

[whipped guy]

Like other posters here, I saw the Met's production of Cenerentola--including one of the encore nights, which I found quite thrilling. And would love to see another encore at the Met (it's addictive).

 

What would be some good possibilities for that in the coming season? For example, Donna del Lago features Juan Diego Florez and Joyce DiDonato. I have never seen/heard this bel canto opera: Any possibilities here? (It seems like bel canto operas with powerful tenors offer the best chances for an encore at the Met.)

 

Any other possibilities?

 

Addictively yours . . . .

 

Interesting question! I just looked at what next season has to offer and I am not sure if I see any encore possibilities, but then again I would not have thought that the tenor cabaletta from Cenerentola would be a candidate....

 

Regarding La Donna del Lago, I doubt there will be any encores. Florez' big scene occurs at the beginning of the second act. The aria is somewhat rhapsodic in nature, and being in an extended single section has the feel of a proto-Chopin nocturne... evidence that the Italian Bel Canto had a profound influence on the Polish composer. So while it will induce quite a bit of applause, it does not have a cabaletta section that would be conducive to an encore. Still, Florez did encore "Una furtiva lagrima" which is not exactly a lively piece. However, the aria in question, "Oh fiamma soave" is significantly longer in length.

 

The big aria for Joyce DiDonato is the Aria and Rondo Finale "Tanti affetti" with chorus and banda that concludes the piece... so again not a viable possibility. Malcolm's (Daniela Barcellona) first and second act arias do have lively concluding cabalettas, so I guess that technically the possibilities do exist. Incidentally there is a second major tenor role and he has an extended martial aria and cabaletta again with chorus and banda, but I think it will be a cold day in Hades if John Osborn is given an encore with Florez in the cast!!!!

[William]

Interesting question! I just looked at what next season has to offer and I am not sure if I see any encore possibilities, but then again I would not have thought that the tenor cabaletta from Cenerentola would be a candidate....

 

Regarding La Donna del Lago, I doubt there will be any encores. Florez' big scene occurs at the beginning of the second act. The aria is somewhat rhapsodic in nature, and being in an extended single section has the feel of a proto-Chopin nocturne... evidence that the Italian Bel Canto had a profound influence on the Polish composer. So while it will induce quite a bit of applause, it does not have a cabaletta section that would be conducive to an encore. Still, Florez did encore "Una furtiva lagrima" which is not exactly a lively piece. However, the aria in question, "Oh fiamma soave" is significantly longer in length.

 

The big aria for Joyce DiDonato is the Aria and Rondo Finale "Tanti affetti" with chorus and banda that concludes the piece... so again not a viable possibility. Malcolm's (Daniela Barcellona) first and second act arias do have lively concluding cabalettas, so I guess that technically the possibilities do exist. Incidentally there is a second major tenor role and he has an extended martial aria and cabaletta again with chorus and banda, but I think it will be a cold day in Hades if John Osborn is given an encore with Florez in the cast!!!!

 

Whipped, you have whetted my appetite for Donna del Lago, which is an opera I have never seen. I wanted to see it in part because Florez is the lead tenor and is teamed with DiDonato again, but your explication persuades me there are others reasons to see this one.

 

Thanks for your erudition and clarity of explanation.

[William]

Bravi

 

Interesting question! I just looked at what next season has to offer and I am not sure if I see any encore possibilities, but then again I would not have thought that the tenor cabaletta from Cenerentola would be a candidate....

 

Regarding La Donna del Lago, I doubt there will be any encores. Florez' big scene occurs at the beginning of the second act. The aria is somewhat rhapsodic in nature, and being in an extended single section has the feel of a proto-Chopin nocturne... evidence that the Italian Bel Canto had a profound influence on the Polish composer. So while it will induce quite a bit of applause, it does not have a cabaletta section that would be conducive to an encore. Still, Florez did encore "Una furtiva lagrima" which is not exactly a lively piece. However, the aria in question, "Oh fiamma soave" is significantly longer in length.

 

The big aria for Joyce DiDonato is the Aria and Rondo Finale "Tanti affetti" with chorus and banda that concludes the piece... so again not a viable possibility. Malcolm's (Daniela Barcellona) first and second act arias do have lively concluding cabalettas, so I guess that technically the possibilities do exist. Incidentally there is a second major tenor role and he has an extended martial aria and cabaletta again with chorus and banda, but I think it will be a cold day in Hades if John Osborn is given an encore with Florez in the cast!!!!

 

I was rereading chunks of this thread this morning, culminating in Whipped's excellent post on Donna del Lago.

 

As an observation, I would say that I learned more from this thread than any other that I have read on this website, and perhaps any other website I have visited. (I don't get out much!)

 

So thanks to the many opera experts who have educated the rest of us. As someone who lives near Lincoln Center and likes opera but is not knowledgeable, this thread has made me a more educated enthusiast.

 

Bravi!

[Andy2]

Reviving this thread, as opera season is upon us again.

 

Any good candidates this season for an encore? Especially a soprano encore? (See my posts above for my objection to the Met's tenor-obsession.)

[whipped guy]

Reviving this thread, as opera season is upon us again.

 

Any good candidates this season for an encore? Especially a soprano encore? (See my posts above for my objection to the Met's tenor-obsession.)

How about Bellini's Norma since I'm seeing it in a few days,.

 

(Incidentally, I specifically avoided the soprano who began the run... no prize for guessing her name... but her voice sounds like finger nails on a chalkboard to me! Sorry to her fans, but I call 'me how I hear 'em...and yes I have heard her in person... and NO, the overtones as they resound in the auditorium don't make her sound any better. Plus, her technique leaves a bit to be desired. So mow that I got that off my chest... )

 

I propose a soprano/mezzo encore. (Actually according to the original concept it should be a double soprano encore but the MET missed an opportunity.) The cabaletta to the long Norma/ Adalgisa duet in the second act "Deh! Con te li lrendi... Mira, o Norma..." which begins at the words "Si fino all'ore". That would be fun and exciting!

[bostonman]

How about Bellini's Norma since I'm seeing it in a few days,.

 

(Incidentally, I specifically avoided the soprano who began the run... no prize for guessing her name... but her voice sounds like finger nails on a chalkboard to me! Sorry to her fans, but I call 'me how I hear 'em...and yes I have heard her in person... and NO, the overtones as they resound in the auditorium don't make her sound any better. Plus, her technique leaves a bit to be desired. So mow that I got that off my chest... )

 

I propose a soprano/mezzo encore. (Actually according to the original concept it should be a double soprano encore but the MET missed an opportunity.) The cabaletta to the long Norma/ Adalgisa duet in the second act "Deh! Con te li lrendi... Mira, o Norma..." which begins at the words "Si fino all'ore". That would be fun and exciting!

 

I wouldn't go for that.

 

Save the fact that the Met has encored "Va Pensiero" in their Nabucco production, it seems to me that mostly, encores are done in comic or lighter operas. Operas where it feels somewhat ok to take a moment to break that 4th wall feeling and enjoy the singers doing the aria again. (Or duet, in the case of the Don Pasquale patter duet.) I think that with more dramatic operas, the conceit doesn't work nearly as well, and takes us out of the drama.

 

I would also say that the Nabucco example might be a bit different because it's not so much about showy vocalism - it's certainly a tribute to the fine work of the Met chorus - but it's really, I think, more about the emotional/historical resonance of that particular number.

[whipped guy]

I wouldn't go for that.

 

Save the fact that the Met has encored "Va Pensiero" in their Nabucco production, it seems to me that mostly, encores are done in comic or lighter operas. Operas where it feels somewhat ok to take a moment to break that 4th wall feeling and enjoy the singers doing the aria again. (Or duet, in the case of the Don Pasquale patter duet.) I think that with more dramatic operas, the conceit doesn't work nearly as well, and takes us out of the drama.

 

I would also say that the Nabucco example might be a bit different because it's not so much about showy vocalism - it's certainly a tribute to the fine work of the Met chorus - but it's really, I think, more about the emotional/historical resonance of that particular number.

 

Well! That slams the door in my face! Sorry for the suggestion! However, there is a history of a duet cabaletta being encored in a serious opera! See below! Plus there was a request for a soprano encore and I gave one that technically includes two!

 

Yes, there is a history of encores in serious works. Pavarotti encored "E luce an le stelle" in Tosca at the MET and if there ever is a poignant and quite serious moment in opera that is one of them. I doubt that the audience was disturbed that the drama was interrupted at that point in the performance.

 

Plus there was the famous encore of "Chi mi frena in tal momento" from Lucia di Lammermoor as done by von Karajan (of all people) in Berlin 1955. Also, speaking of Lucia, Sutherland encored the cabaletta to the Mad Scene after singing the entire scene at a concert in the 1960's. Thus, giving the audience three E-flats in alt in addition to all the other high notes earlier in the evening!

 

To top it off a few years ago at La Scala where encores are not common the duet cabaletta "Si vendetta" that concludes the third act of Rigoletto was encored in front of the curtain after it fell. The audience was delighted that their crys of "Bis! Bis!" were acknowledged!

 

So there's precedent indeed!

 

EDIT! I just realized that I mentioned that the duet concluded the third act of Rigoletto! Well years ago it was done in four acts! Outed as an old opera fogey! It concludes Verdi's original second act!

[+ WilliamM]

Well! That slams the door in my face! Sorry for the suggestion! However, there is a history of a duet cabaletta being encored in a serious opera! See below! Plus there was a request for a soprano encore and I gave one that technically includes two!

 

@whipped guy, I have learned a huge amount about opera from you over the years. Thank you. The only opera I plan to see during the rest of 2017 is "The Exterminating Angel." Now that I have more money (thanks to the Veterans Administration), I buy seats in the orchestra occasionally.

 

I have never seen "Hello, Dolly" on stage or film, so I am finally seeing the musical in December. (In 1964, I chose "Funny Girl"

over Dolly.) That's why I am only seeing one opera this fall. Thanks again, whipped guy.

[whipped guy]

@whipped guy, I have learned a huge amount about opera from you over the years. Thank you. The only opera I plan to see during the rest of 2017 is "The Exterminating Angel." Now that I have more money (thanks to the Veterans Administration), I buy seats in the orchestra occasionally.

 

I have never seen "Hello, Dolly" on stage or film, so I am finally seeing the musical in December. (In 1964, I chose "Funny Girl"

over Dolly.) That's why I am only seeing one opera this fall. Thanks again, whipped guy.

Thank you for your kind words. I have been around the block regarding opera. Not quite as many times around as others who post here, but at least around the block once and enough to know what I appreciate and what I don't appreciate. We all hear things in a different fashion. What I hear as fingernails on a chalkboard others interpret as being at the gates of Elysium. That's what makes things so interesting and makes one want to explore the many possibilities that the art form offers!

 

I also am only able to see one opera at the MET this year as I will soon be out of the area. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I will not be disappointed. Still, years ago even with a less than stellar cast and unattractive production I was deeply moved by the final moments of Bellini's Norma. I am confident that Bellini will work his magic once fagain no matter what!

 

Regarding The Exterminating Angel, you are more adventurous than I!

[TruHart1]

@whipped guy, I have learned a huge amount about opera from you over the years. Thank you. The only opera I plan to see during the rest of 2017 is "The Exterminating Angel." Now that I have more money (thanks to the Veterans Administration), I buy seats in the orchestra occasionally.

I have never seen "Hello, Dolly" on stage or film, so I am finally seeing the musical in December. (In 1964, I chose "Funny Girl"

over Dolly.) That's why I am only seeing one opera this fall. Thanks again, whipped guy.

Thank you for your kind words. I have been around the block regarding opera...

 

Regarding The Exterminating Angel, you are more adventurous than I!

I was going to chime in to say, WG will not be seeing a brand new (meaning modern) opera, composed and conducted by its contemporary composer (Thomas Ades) even though it has a very large cast of excellent singers! It is just not WG's thang! Personally, I immensely enjoyed Mr. Ades' most successful opera to date, The Tempest, so I am also looking forward to seeing the new opera, though only by way of the HD Telecast in a local movie theater!

 

Back to topic, I agree with WG that perhaps a bis of the Norma/Adalgisa duet cabaletta would be a fine idea, if the singers were especially "on" in a performance. I really do doubt it will occur during this MET run, with any of these casts, though. Encores should only be performed when the audience is so excited and vociferous in their applause that they refuse to let the opera continue until they get the satisfaction of hearing the aria/duet again though, and this is a very rare occurrence, as it should be!

 

That said, I am greatly looking forward to the revival of Massenet's Thaïs, coming in November, with Ailyn Pérez and Gerald Finley. If Madame Pérez sings her second act aria, Dis-moi que je suis belle astoundingly, including the final crowning high D, (above high C, as written) I would say that soprano aria is a great candidate for an encore! Since Thaïs is not a staple of the French operatic repertory (this MET production was originally mounted for Renée Fleming, as she was singing the role all over Europe and finally bringing the role to the MET!) though, no matter how well she performs the aria, this is not likely to happen.

 

TruHart1

[bostonman]

Well! That slams the door in my face! Sorry for the suggestion! However, there is a history of a duet cabaletta being encored in a serious opera! See below! Plus there was a request for a soprano encore and I gave one that technically includes two!

 

Yes, there is a history of encores in serious works. Pavarotti encored "E luce an le stelle" in Tosca at the MET and if there ever is a poignant and quite serious moment in opera that is one of them. I doubt that the audience was disturbed that the drama was interrupted at that point in the performance.

 

LOL!

 

I certainly never said that encores in dramatic operas don't happen. Just generally not at the Met. (And I forgot about the Pavarotti exception.) Until recently, encores of any sort were pretty much verboten at the Met, and as I said, aside from the Nabucco chorus (and yes, that one Pavarotti example), all the encores have been in comic operas. Where I generally think they feel more natural. That's all I meant to say.

 

Having performed a number of the Gilbert and Sullivan operettas, it's amazing to look at the very old Kalmus orchestra parts (which are still used quite a bit) to see constant marks for encores in the parts. Not just the few that we'd think would be standard and expected, but in all sorts of places, including ensemble numbers. These markings date way back (not sure if they really go back to the original performances, but perhaps the early 1900's at least?) and most of those encores aren't done any more, but if D'Oyly Carte really sued to do all of them, that would make for quite a long evening lol. But again, given the comic nature of the shows and also the presentational style of the original productions, I think they'd be quite fun and not at all out of place. Especially, of course, the patter numbers (which these days, are usually the only numbers that DO get encored).

[whipped guy]

Well to @bostonman... Well I guess came across as bit stern, but I do have a reputation to uphold! Seriously, the G&S thing is quite interesting. It would also be informative to know how many encores were done in Verdi and Co. back in the day!

 

Reminds me of the Glimmerglass Opera production of La Gazza Ladra last year where they performed an encore of the Overture during the curtain calls! Nice touch!

 

Perhaps we should rename this thread "To bis or not to bis"!

 

(Sorry!)

[TruHart1]

Well to @bostonman... Well I guess came across as bit stern, but I do have a reputation to uphold...

Reminds me of the Glimmerglass Opera production of La Gazza Ladra last year where they performed an encore of the Overture during the curtain calls! Nice touch!

 

Perhaps we should rename this thread "To bis or not to bis"!

 

(Sorry!)

LOL I love that pun, @whipped guy! I'm a sucker(!!!) for bad puns but I especially find puns with foreign words subbed for English like this!!!

 

TruHart1

[+ Italiano]

How about Bellini's Norma since I'm seeing it in a few days,.

 

(Incidentally, I specifically avoided the soprano who began the run... no prize for guessing her name... but her voice sounds like finger nails on a chalkboard to me! Sorry to her fans, but I call 'me how I hear 'em...and yes I have heard her in person... and NO, the overtones as they resound in the auditorium don't make her sound any better. Plus, her technique leaves a bit to be desired. So mow that I got that off my chest... )

 

I propose a soprano/mezzo encore. (Actually according to the original concept it should be a double soprano encore but the MET missed an opportunity.) The cabaletta to the long Norma/ Adalgisa duet in the second act "Deh! Con te li lrendi... Mira, o Norma..." which begins at the words "Si fino all'ore". That would be fun and exciting!

 

I can't stand her either...

 

By the way, as you most probably know, the "Si fino all'ore estreme" duet was encored by Callas and Stignani at Covent Garden in 1957.

[whipped guy]

I can't stand her either...

 

By the way, as you most probably know, the "Si fino all'ore estreme" duet was encored by Callas and Stignani at Covent Garden in 1957.

Xaf! Yes! I knew that, but it temporarily had skipped my mind! The conductor who allowed it was John Pritchard! I'm sure the reason that I picked it was because it was somehow in the deep recesses of my mind! It's is indeed strange how the mind works! At any rate that fact totally vindicates my choice! Grazie mille!

 

Regarding that other soprano, I think that the best words to describe the sounds that her voice makes are "gridare e urlare" meaning to shout and scream. It is sad, because I heard her in Il Trovatore in 2000 and the voice had a silvery quality. It had an interesting vibrato and especially above the staff, somewhat like Pilar Lorengar but not quite as pronounced. That vibrato has turned into a scratchy sound that permeates the entire range.

[+ Italiano]

By the way, I just saw this morning in Paris the "Exhibition Maria by Callas".

 

WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW!!!!!!

[whipped guy]

By the way, I just saw this morning in Paris the "Exhibition Maria by Callas".

 

WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW!!!!!!

WOW!!! Plus Maria looks quite happy about that as well!

 

[bostonman]

Reminds me of the Glimmerglass Opera production of La Gazza Ladra last year where they performed an encore of the Overture during the curtain calls! Nice touch!

 

Perhaps we should rename this thread "To bis or not to bis"!

 

Agreed on the pun - quite deftly done, sir.

 

In terms of an "encore" of an overture, I would doubt that was the intention. They probably just decided that they wanted curtain call music (which is not something usually done in opera) and the most obvious choice for instrumental music was the overture. So it's not really the same result as what we think of as a true "encore" where music is repeated because the audience can't get enough of the bravura performance.

 

Even in most Broadway shows, the bows and "exit music" is often music repeated directly from the overture and/or entr'acte - there's usually no time to write anything new. (I even have an old print of the "Overture" for West Side Story - written after the fact at Bernstein's request, so that he'd have something to conduct at a revival of the production - that shows it was literally a cut-and-paste job out of chosen pages from the score. Nothing newly composed at all.)

[+ WilliamM]

I even have an old print of the "Overture" for West Side Story

 

Yannick Nezet-Seguin and the Philadelphia Orchestra is presenting West Side Story in concert this weekend. in Philadelphia. Not sure about all the dancing, which for me is essential.

[whipped guy]

I posted the reference to the overture to La Gazza Ladra simply because @bostonman's posting about the encores in G&S reminded me of the fact. It obviously was not technically an encore as it came three hours after the overture proper. However, like the G&S Overtures (which were often cobbled together by assistants from the best sections of the piece) the Gazza Overture is likewise mostly based on themes from the opera proper. Therefore it made me think of what is often done at light opera and Broadway productions where the audience is reminded of some of the hit tunes that occurred previously in the show! I had never previously encountered any such music accompanying curtain calls at an opera. Needless to say it was quite effective and certainly added to the effectiveness of the curtain calls. Perhaps it is something for the opera world to consider in certain select situations. Though please not for the Ring or any other Wagner as that might be just a bit too much of a good thing! Plus, I don't think that it would work for Berg's Lulu either!

 

Incidentally, an assistant took over for the conductor which allowed the Maestro to take his bow on stage along with the cast.

[TruHart1]

I posted the reference to the overture to La Gazza Ladra simply because @bostonman's posting about the encores in G&S reminded me of the fact...

Though please not for the Ring or any other Wagner as that might be just a bit too much of a good thing! Plus, I don't think that it would work for Berg's Lulu either!

 

Incidentally, an assistant took over for the conductor which allowed the Maestro to take his bow on stage along with the cast.

I don't know, that final scene in Lulu with Countess Geschwitz and Jack the Ripper is truly beautiful music. Perhaps not good music for bows but a possible encore?

 

TruHart1

[+ WilliamM]

I don't know, that final scene in Lulu with Countess Geschwitz and Jack the Ripper is truly beautiful music. Perhaps not good music for bows but a possible encore?

 

Truly unfair:)

 

Lulu is one of my favorite operas. I have even seen the opera in Sydney as well as many times at the Met.