A Weighty Issue

[jjkrkwood]

Then is your Latest comment a Mirage ????

[Strafe13]

Because he "chooses" not to. Who are WE to determine how a person should behave ? We dont have to agree, but still we have no right to dictate behavior. Too many on this site have a God complex and feel they have the right to tell others how to act. We dont ! Its more harmfull to label a person a racist for behavior we dont agree with in the guise that BVB's post was an offering of Help to others. It certainly didnt help the escort. Where are HIS rights ? Did he forfeit them when he behaved in a way you didnt agree with ? Whether you are admitting it or not, YOU are weighing in here with YOUR opinion, as I did with mine. And you seem to be telling me that YOU are right and I am wrong... At least thats how it comes off.... and since the escort is not here to defend himself, we should just leave it at that.

 

The reason the escort isn't here to "defend himself" is because BVB has chosen not to disclose his identity, which is why I originally asked that it be done so clients could avoid an embarrassing interaction with him. Ironically, BVB is showing way more consideration to the escort than was shown to him. Clients post reviews to benefit other clients. If the escorts can gain some insight from the reviews, then that's great, but the main purpose of this site and forum is for us to help each other. I am not concerned with dictating that this escort see any and all clients. What I've said consistently, and which you have failed consistently to respond to, is that potential clients should not have to face a humiliating encounter because an escort is too chicken to say publicly what he has no problem saying privately to the humiliated client. I am concerned with the client in this situation because he is the one who bears the brunt of the escort's preferences as expressed in his business practices. "Who are we?" We are the clients upon whom all escorts depend for their business (generally speaking, of course). If we don't have the right to say that we should be treated with a modicum of respect and consideration, then who else? I'm more surprised that you're so insensitive to a fellow client being treated so poorly. Perhaps it's because you don't understand how truly humiliating it is to be treated like that? Who knows? But the fact thatyou think it's okay for the escort to put that all on the unsuspecting client is rather unfortunate.

[jjkrkwood]

The reason the escort isn't here to "defend himself" is because BVB has chosen not to disclose his identity, which is why I originally asked that it be done so clients could avoid an embarrassing interaction with him. Ironically, BVB is showing way more consideration to the escort than was shown to him. Clients post reviews to benefit other clients. If the escorts can gain some insight from the reviews, then that's great, but the main purpose of this site and forum is for us to help each other. I am not concerned with dictating that this escort see any and all clients. What I've said consistently, and which you have failed consistently to respond to, is that potential clients should not have to face a humiliating encounter because an escort is too chicken to say publicly what he has no problem saying privately to the humiliated client. I am concerned with the client in this situation because he is the one who bears the brunt of the escort's preferences as expressed in his business practices. "Who are we?" We are the clients upon whom all escorts depend for their business (generally speaking, of course). If we don't have the right to say that we should be treated with a modicum of respect and consideration, then who else? I'm more surprised that you're so insensitive to a fellow client being treated so poorly. Perhaps it's because you don't understand how truly humiliating it is to be treated like that? Who knows? But the fact thatyou think it's okay for the escort to put that all on the unsuspecting client is rather unfortunate.

 

Excuse me Strafe, I have been openly gay ALL my life, and have been teased, tormented and beaten for being so, so as far as understanding goes, i think i got that covered..... We basically are talking about 2 people here, who dont know each other and most likely who's paths will never cross. And we are making it into a "civil rights" moratorium. What "supposedly" occurred between BVB and the escort is no diff from encounters many of us have Every day on hookup sites such as Adam4Adam and Craigs list. The only difference is the element of money. Lets get a grip here, this is how REAL life operates, people make choices based on preferences, beliefs, and prejudices. ALL people, so lets not pretend any of us are removed from that. If you choose to believe BVB's recounting of his incident, thats fine for you. I would much rather have my own experience and make my own judgement. (and you can interpret THAT anyway you'd like).

[Strafe13]

I was obviously speaking in the realm of racial discrimination, not just those general instances we've all had of being rejected. It's interesting that when we discussed this earlier, you resorted to such general examples like attempting to hook up in a bar, but have now switched to your anti-gay examples, perhaps to bolster your point? I've tried to impress upon you that there is something qualitatively different about being discriminated against on the basis of race, particularly given the unique historical, social and cultural associations and meanings ascribed to such treatment. But if you don't get it, then you just don't get it. Harkening back to the discussion between myself, seeker, and BVB, it's one of those things that for some people, if they don't experience it first-hand, then they just cannot understand. Irrespective of whether you understand how insulting it is to be told that because you're black you're being rejected, I still think this escort should have the decency to spare potential black clients that humiliation by stating his preferences upfront. And if he won't do it, then we should take advantage of this forum to educate ourselves on those escorts. I don't get why that's a problem for you. And your entire defense of this escort (i.e., it's not a big deal; don't be offended; get a grip; there's no evidence of racial discrimination), has been premised on BVB's story being accurate in that the escort wanted to make sure BVB wasn't black. If you want to now operate under a different premise (i.e., we don't know what really happened or what was said; you can believe BVB, but I want to make my own judgment), then that's an entirely different discussion than anyone else has been having.

 

As to making your own judgments based off your own experience, don't you get that your not being black will make your own judgment vis-a-vis this particular escort kind of irrelevant because your experiences will be totally different? You're within the favored group (or, more accurately, not in the disfavored group), so you won't be insulted like BVB was. In fact, unless you mention it, it's likely the subject won't even arise, assuming that when you provide the minutia that the escort requests, your answers, unlike BVB's, will not indicate that a black person provided them. Once your non-blackness is confirmed to the escort's satisfaction, then it's all good for you, and you'll be free to judge the escort based on any non-racial criteria. And of course, the fact that you know that beforehand means you can say with comfort that this is not a big deal, and that BVB or myself being offended was an overreaction, because you already know that this particular kind of treatment will not happen to you with this guy. You've been analyzing this situation from a position of privilege without even realizing it.

 

You and I have actually been friendly on other threads, and I've come to your defense multiple times, so I'm unsure why I'm detecting what appears to be a more angry tone on your part. This is a spirited discussion on a subject matter that is frequently testy, emotional, and uncomfortable, and I am not trying to put you down or anyone else. But I think conversations about race are difficult but necessary, both for the larger society and within the LGBT community (and the mini-community that Daddy's Forum represents).

 

 

Excuse me Strafe, I have been openly gay ALL my life, and have been teased, tormented and beaten for being so, so as far as understanding goes, i think i got that covered..... We basically are talking about 2 people here, who dont know each other and most likely who's paths will never cross. And we are making it into a "civil rights" moratorium. What "supposedly" occurred between BVB and the escort is no diff from encounters many of us have Every day on hookup sites such as Adam4Adam and Craigs list. The only difference is the element of money. Lets get a grip here, this is how REAL life operates, people make choices based on preferences, beliefs, and prejudices. ALL people, so lets not pretend any of us are removed from that. If you choose to believe BVB's recounting of his incident, thats fine for you. I would much rather have my own experience and make my own judgement. (and you can interpret THAT anyway you'd like).

[gilbert]

This has been a great thread! I am 60, overweight, and have low self-esteme issues concerning my appearance. The first thing I do when I contact an escort is ask him if he has any issues with a client's age and weight. I wouldn't blame him at all if he did. I would understand perfectly. Quite frankly, I don't understand how escorts can entertain so many different kinds of men, because I am SOOOO picky about the type of escorts I hire. There is nothing worse than getting together with an escort who acts like he doesn't want to be there, or who seems to try to avoid too much body contact. Geez! Talk about a turn off! I do my best to be very honest with a postential escort about who I am, what I get into, and what I expect from him. I do not want to get stuck with a guy who doesn't want to be there with me.

[jjkrkwood]

You and I have actually been friendly on other threads, and I've come to your defense multiple times, so I'm unsure why I'm detecting what appears to be a more angry tone on your part. This is a spirited discussion on a subject matter that is frequently testy, emotional, and uncomfortable, and I am not trying to put you down or anyone else. But I think conversations about race are difficult but necessary, both for the larger society and within the LGBT community (and the mini-community that Daddy's Forum represents).

 

Strafe, I am not angry, nor habor any animousity towards you. We have diff opinions on this issue. No, i am NOT black, but I am a jew, and have been rejected because of that. And in fact I have been called "anti-semetic" by members on THIS site. People will always continue to behave as they Choose. Yes you have every right to call them out. I choose not to condemn the escort in this instance, just as I routinely NOT to believe crap that I hear which i was not witness to. Thats just ME.... As I have stated several times, I dont condone any form of racism, but for me, THIS was clearly not a case therewith, regardless of how BVB and yourself might have taken it. I am not asking anyone to change their minds on this issue. While I respect your experiences and opinion, I reserve the right to disagree, and hope you can leave it at that ?

[jjkrkwood]

This has been a great thread! I am 60, overweight, and have low self-esteme issues concerning my appearance. The first thing I do when I contact an escort is ask him if he has any issues with a client's age and weight. I wouldn't blame him at all if he did. I would understand perfectly. Quite frankly, I don't understand how escorts can entertain so many different kinds of men, because I am SOOOO picky about the type of escorts I hire. There is nothing worse than getting together with an escort who acts like he doesn't want to be there, or who seems to try to avoid too much body contact. Geez! Talk about a turn off! I do my best to be very honest with a postential escort about who I am, what I get into, and what I expect from him. I do not want to get stuck with a guy who doesn't want to be there with me.

 

Agreed Gilbert, and you are taking full responsibility to insure that doesnt happen, to the best of your ability.... More clients need to asert themselves, and not assume the escort is a "professional" who MUST take on, and be able to perform with EVERY potential client. they are still HUMAN people. Respect THEIR limitations as well....

[gp0560]

I'd like to mention two points that I don't think have been brought up in this thread before.

 

1. The color of one's skin is immediately obvious and makes a easy target for value judgments. That's not the case for the attributes of gayness, alcoholism, substance abuse, ethnicity, mental state and so on, which are usually not immediately obvious. (Exceptions duly noted.) More important is the fact that unless you are straight, alcoholic, latino, depressed, or on meth yourself, you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what it's like to have that particular value (depression) of that attribute (mental state).

 

I repeat myself, but if you are gay, you cannot KNOW what it's like to be sexually aroused by a woman to the point of selfish lust. Neither can an African-American KNOW what it's like to be a white person in a culture that values another skin color. We can observe and try to understand, but FEEL it from the inside out? I don't think so.

 

2. Why the fuck do humans require a hate object anyway? Individuals, classes, nations, civilizations always seem to need an "Other" to despise. And when hate for one person/group has to be dropped for some reason, another person/group is found to take its place. For example, now that Americans don't have Russians to hate anymore, they can start hating Middle Easterners. Have Christians given up hating Jews and turned to Muslims? If space aliens show up, all of humanity can finally unite, because they will have found a common hate object. I think there are books and studies on the "Other," aren't there? I should really read a few of them.

 

Finally, please let me add that I have tried hard to word this post very carefully. It is not my intent to hurt anyone, and if I did, I apologize.

[citylaw1]

No, i am NOT black, but I am a jew, and have been rejected because of that. And in fact I have been called "anti-semetic" by members on THIS site.

 

Growing up I had a friend named Jason that was Italian (Mother) and Jewish (Father from Israel.) I named him Jew-Wop; a name that has stuck to this day. His birthday cake with "Happy Birthday Jew-Wop" provided one of his Grandmother's last laughs.

[citylaw1]

Hardly, just an FYI, ALL the pm's I receive are about YOU, and it ain't Pretty ! (hearsay perhaps ?)

 

Do you really think that I care about PM's that disparage me? I much prefer to debate in the forum rather than PM back and forth in what some believe to be privacy. It seems silly to me, unless sharing private information regarding escorts that shouldn't be posted publicly.

[citylaw1]

your excuse making here makes no sense because the entire forum and review site is people presenting their version of events that the rest of us obviously were not present to witness for ourselves. Yet we use this site as the incredible resource that it is because we are able to take the reviews/comments with a grain of salt and decide for ourselves what's more likely true and make our hiring decisions accordingly.

B-I-N-G-O

 

I also notice you didn't even comment on the escort's cowardice in refusing to make his discriminatory preferences public. Although you claim we don't know the other side of the sorry, you implicitly accepted BVB's version that the escort refused him due to race when you claimed that for you this is just about someone who doesn't enjoy sex with black men. If there's nothing wrong with that, and it definitely affects ones business practices, then why not say so in his ad, so as to avoid potentially embarrassing interactions with unsuspecting black clients? I think it's because he's afraid that many white or other non-black clients won't appreciate that and may refuse to hire him. Hence, he does not have the courage of his convictions.

 

JJ never actually reads, learns and then responds. JJ writes (sort of) without taking into account changing facts and absorbing other opinions. All of this leads to a one sided dialogue with lousy results. More people would call him out if he wasn't on so many "ignore" lists.

[seeker630]

I'd like to mention two points that I don't think have been brought up in this thread before.

 

1. The color of one's skin is immediately obvious and makes a easy target for value judgments. That's not the case for the attributes of gayness, alcoholism, substance abuse, ethnicity, mental state and so on, which are usually not immediately obvious. (Exceptions duly noted.) More important is the fact that unless you are straight, alcoholic, latino, depressed, or on meth yourself, you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what it's like to have that particular value (depression) of that attribute (mental state).I repeat myself, but if you are gay, you cannot KNOW what it's like to be sexually aroused by a woman to the point of selfish lust. Neither can an African-American KNOW what it's like to be a white person in a culture that values another skin color. We can observe and try to understand, but FEEL it from the inside out? I don't think so.

 

2. Why the fuck do humans require a hate object anyway? Individuals, classes, nations, civilizations always seem to need an "Other" to despise. And when hate for one person/group has to be dropped for some reason, another person/group is found to take its place. For example, now that Americans don't have Russians to hate anymore, they can start hating Middle Easterners. Have Christians given up hating Jews and turned to Muslims? If space aliens show up, all of humanity can finally unite, because they will have found a common hate object. I think there are books and studies on the "Other," aren't there? I should really read a few of them.

 

Finally, please let me add that I have tried hard to word this post very carefully. It is not my intent to hurt anyone, and if I did, I apologize.

 

GP, I think these things have been touched on, at least peripherally. One interesting fact in BVB's case is that his race is not visibly obvious, which I thought made his situation a bit more like sexual orientation. However, in the particular instance that precipitated this discussion, the escort never saw BVB anyway, and BVB believes he COULD have had a session without his race being discovered. (And no, I am NOT suggesting he should).

 

I do take issue with your statement that that "unless you are straight, alcoholic, latino, depressed, or on meth yourself, you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what it's like to have that particular value (depression) of that attribute (mental state)." I do think some limited, incomplete understanding is possible, and i think it's possible to find similariites in experiences that help. But if you're right..then there's no point in trying to make/help people understand and we will all remain even further apart.

 

As for 'why do humans need a hate object anyway' - I mentioned earlier that it seems every group has to find another group to feel superior to. I tend to think that we are biologically programmed for xenophobia and it's something we have to overcome.

[citylaw1]

This has been a great thread! I am 60, overweight, and have low self-esteme issues concerning my appearance. The first thing I do when I contact an escort is ask him if he has any issues with a client's age and weight. I wouldn't blame him at all if he did. I would understand perfectly. Quite frankly, I don't understand how escorts can entertain so many different kinds of men, because I am SOOOO picky about the type of escorts I hire. There is nothing worse than getting together with an escort who acts like he doesn't want to be there, or who seems to try to avoid too much body contact. Geez! Talk about a turn off! I do my best to be very honest with a postential escort about who I am, what I get into, and what I expect from him. I do not want to get stuck with a guy who doesn't want to be there with me.

 

This, in my opinion, is the correct way to approach an appointment. Why be disappointed when it can be avoided?

[jjkrkwood]

Growing up I had a friend named Jason that was Italian (Mother) and Jewish (Father from Israel.) I named him Jew-Wop; a name that has stuck to this day. His birthday cake with "Happy Birthday Jew-Wop" provided one of his Grandmother's last laughs.

 

And I am sure you know that NOT everyone would embrace a statement like that with such Levity ? You can imagine the fire-storm that would ignite on THIS site.

[jjkrkwood]

JJ never actually reads, learns and then responds. JJ writes (sort of) without taking into account changing facts and absorbing other opinions. All of this leads to a one sided dialogue with lousy results. More people would call him out if he wasn't on so many "ignore" lists.

 

City, why cant I make YOUR ignore list.... PLEASE ! Honey badger dont give a fuck !

[citylaw1]

And I am sure you know that NOT everyone would embrace a statement like that with such Levity ? You can imagine the fire-storm that would ignite on THIS site.

 

Well, clearly you have to know your audience. Jason's family adored me and were able to find the humor in this. I certainly don't advocate scouring the synagogues looking for people to test this out on.

[citylaw1]

City, why cant I make YOUR ignore list.... PLEASE ! Honey badger dont give a fuck !

 

I think ignoring people in a forum is akin to crying for moderation. Either read or don't read. It really isn't all that serious.

[gp0560]

I do take issue with your statement that that "unless you are straight, alcoholic, latino, depressed, or on meth yourself, you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what it's like to have that particular value (depression) of that attribute (mental state)." I do think some limited, incomplete understanding is possible, and i think it's possible to find similariites in experiences that help. But if you're right..then there's no point in trying to make/help people understand and we will all remain even further apart.

 

Seeker, now that you call me on it, I must say that I do agree that some limited understanding is possible, and I probably overstated my point. My point of view is heavily influenced by my own family, in which we see depression and alcoholism. Those folks understand each other much better than the rest of us because it is easy to make the analogy from one disease to the other. The rest of us understand only partly, so we just love them.

 

I still think that gut-level understanding is not possible, but I do agree with you that partial understanding is needed and possible. Analogies can help. And I definitely agree with you that we all need to develop as much understanding of the potential "Other" as we can. Absolutely.

[seeker630]

Seeker, now that you call me on it, I must say that I do agree that some limited understanding is possible, and I probably overstated my point. My point of view is heavily influenced by my own family, in which we see depression and alcoholism. Those folks understand each other much better than the rest of us because it is easy to make the analogy from one disease to the other. The rest of us understand only partly, so we just love them.

 

I still think that gut-level understanding is not possible, but I do agree with you that partial understanding is needed and possible. Analogies can help. And I definitely agree with you that we all need to develop as much understanding of the potential "Other" as we can. Absolutely.

 

 

gp, thanks for a civil and considered response. And I think I may agree with you about 'gut level understanding' - I think the level of visceral, emotional understanding may depend on commonality of experiences and persoanlities, to some extent.

 

I was really moved by your line, The rest of us understand only partly, so we just love them. Partial understanding and love (or even just respect) seem like worthy goals to me!

[gp0560]

gp, thanks for a civil and considered response. And I think I may agree with you about 'gut level understanding' - I think the level of visceral, emotional understanding may depend on commonality of experiences and persoanlities, to some extent.

 

I was really moved by your line, The rest of us understand only partly, so we just love them. Partial understanding and love (or even just respect) seem like worthy goals to me!

 

Thank you, seeker. You give good discussion.

[ZayneRivers]

It's plain and simple:

If you're racist, sexist, sizeist, homophobic, xenophobic, agist, etc et al then you're in the wrong business

 

It's one thing to not be into the same sexual activities, but to give merit or blame on such trivial qualities as the aforementioned is absurd

 

I wish I could apologize on behalf of all escorts for some of the utter bullshit I'm sure many of you have put up with. Fucking breaks my heart any time a guy asks me if it's ok that he's Asian, fat, old, etc. If any of you encounter guys with such disrespect, I encourage you to smartly tell them off and then report them on whatever site they operate from.

 

Bring on all the fats, fems, asians, and blacks of the world!

 

Vent over

[Kyle Clinton]

It's plain and simple:

If you're racist, sexist, sizeist, homophobic, xenophobic, agist, etc et al then you're in the wrong business

 

It's one thing to not be into the same sexual activities, but to give merit or blame on such trivial qualities as the aforementioned is absurd

 

I wish I could apologize on behalf of all escorts for some of the utter bullshit I'm sure many of you have put up with. Fucking breaks my heart any time a guy asks me if it's ok that he's Asian, fat, old, etc. If any of you encounter guys with such disrespect, I encourage you to smartly tell them off and then report them on whatever site they operate from.

 

Bring on all the fats, fems, asians, and blacks of the world!

 

Vent over

Well Zayne you just bounced to the top of my list! Not because I fall into any of those physical categories but because of your compassionate and open spirit. THAT'S sexy! You've already been on my RM Buddy List but it's gonna be time soon to get you off the list and in person. Woof!

[Hornplatz]

Not many people lining up to hire guys over 40 either.

Escorts tend to be young, slim, but not necessarily handsome.

It's their skills in bed that people want.

 

Over 40? - I wish there would be masseurs up to 70 y/o. I prefer the more mature man. I used to see

one who os two years my junior. (I am 80) He is a fantastic masseur.