Buenos Aires the new gay mecca

[Guest dreynsol]

Not my words, even though I've been tempted by BA a few times! :-) But, found this article pretty interesting, especially in terms of how our Gay dollars can impact local economies.

 

For example, reading that "There are no official statistics on gay and lesbian travellers to Buenos Aires, but tourism officials estimate that one in five of the 5.25 million visitors last year was gay."

 

And, also that "...gay and lesbian tourism is also very lucrative. Argentina wants to grab a bigger slice of the estimated

$94 billion (49.12 billion pounds) in annual revenue the niche market generates worldwide, according to the International Gay and Lesbian Travel Association, IGLTA."

 

Hopefully, these kinds of statistics can help make "international doors" more welcoming to us in the future. Like maybe a "Gay express lane" through customs! :-)

 

Here's the article: http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5583500

 

- Drey

[trilingual]

When a Brazilian style sauna-with-escorts opens in Buenos Aires, Rio will have something to worry about! Until then, I don't think B.A. can be described as THE mecca for gay travellers to South America. It would be more fair to say it's one of the meccas for gay travel on the continent. B.A. is one of my favorite cities, and I always enjoy myself there, but, with the exception of its tango culture, it's much less "exotic" and different than Brazil. Tango aside, B.A. really is just a huge southern European city mysteriously located thousands of miles away from the real Europe. There's nothing the matter with that, of course! It makes B.A. an ideal destination for visitors who want to experience European glamour at South American prices! And there's no question that the all-important "gorgeous men" quotient is high indeed!

 

Personally, I think Rio, São Paulo and Buenos Aires complement each other wonderfully. All three are mega-metropolises with vibrant gay scenes and endless attractions, yet are very different one from the other. If travel operators were smart, they'd capitalize on that, and the relative closeness of the three cities. (B.A. is just a three-and-a-half hour flight from the two Brazilian cities, which are less than an hour's flight away from each other.) It would be very easy in a two-week trip to visit all three, and toss in a stop at Iguassu Falls, too! Conventional travel operators for eons have offered ten to fourteen-day packages including Rio, the falls, and Buenos Aires. Gay travel agencies could do the same thing, including sites of gay interest in their tours of the three big cities (Iguassu has a pretty limited gay scene). Such an itinerary would be an ideal way for a first-time visitor to get a good taste of the best of gay South America!

 

The other countries mentioned in the report (Uruguay, Peru and Ecuador) all have many attractions and are well worth visiting, but they don't have gay scenes to compare with Brazil and Argentina and I doubt will become gay meccas any time soon. I'm surprised Chile got left off the list. There is an active gay scene in the capital, Santiago (although no escort sauna scene), stunning scenery and friendly people. But all of these destinations seem to me to be "add-on" kinds of places on a trip to the real gay meccas of South America. Unless, of course, a traveller is primarily interested in the natural or archaeological attractions of one of the other countries and doesn't care much if there's a terrific gay scene or not. There's certainly a segment of the gay travel market for such tourism -- posters on M4M have reported on their enjoyable experiences in Patagonia and Antarctica, in the Galápagos Islands and Chile's Atacama desert, etc.

 

In any event, it's good that so many places in South America are waking up to their own substantial gay populations and to the potentially lucrative gay travel market. Most travellers, I think, prefer to go someplace where they know they will be welcome, especially gay travellers. There's still enormous room for growth for such travel in both Brazil and Argentina.

[Guest msclonly]

I would hardly call BA a gay mecca. There are not a whole lot of tourists in the bars, when questioned by the MC as to where they are from. The few are visiting BA in relation to THEIR JOBS.

 

It is a limited scene at best.

I am enjoying the sites and Cafes as much or more then the nite life. The European flavor sets very well with me and I like it.

But if it big A-C-T-I-O-N, that yoou want, then it would be advisable to stay further North!

 

I suspect that article is a PROOMOTIONAL piece to encourage money flow into the economy and fill in for other declining tourists numbers.

There are a few British subjects around, and Scandinavians out on the town, but not very many Americans. I am also impressed by how few natives speak English.

 

[world traveler]

>I would hardly call BA a gay mecca. There are not a whole lot

>of tourists in the bars, when questioned by the MC as to where

>they are from. The few are visiting BA in relation to THEIR

>JOBS.

>

>It is a limited scene at best.

>I am enjoying the sites and Cafes as much or more then the

>nite life. The European flavor sets very well with me and I

>like it.

>But if it big A-C-T-I-O-N, that yoou want, then it would be

>advisable to stay further North!

>

>I suspect that article is a PROOMOTIONAL piece to encourage

>money flow into the economy and fill in for other declining

>tourists numbers.

>There are a few British subjects around, and Scandinavians out

>on the town, but not very many Americans. I am also impressed

>by how few natives speak English.

>

>

 

I am in BA at the moment, and just a side note to what was said above. I dont understand why we think English should be spoken in other countries than ours. In my opinion we are the ones that should be speaking their language, after all we are guests in there country, it is not the other way around. I know we think that English is the universal langauge, well maybe we just think it is. If we cannot speak our hosts countries language, well then maybe we should learn some basics before we go.

 

World Traveler

[Guest msclonly]

The travel industry requires bilingualism!

It is not a tit for tat!

 

;(

[trilingual]

B.A. has been getting sizeable gay tourism, but perhaps they're not hanging out at the same places msclonly has been going!!! My sense is that it's been getting either a younger crowd that wants to spend time at the hot dance clubs and parties, or an older crowd that just enjoys the city's European ambience, with the occasional visit to spots like Titanic to check out the strippers. Some visitors just go to shop for leather goods and clothing, which can be a bargain in Argentina these days, at least if you know where to look!

 

As msclonly points out, the café lifestyle is a BIG part of the B.A. way of life, and there's a lot to be said for just parking yourself in the window or on the terrace of a smart café and watching the handsome people going by! There are also lots of good restaurants offering a variety of cuisines, with good service and urbane surroundings at extremely reasonable prices. For Spanish-speakers, it's a theater and book-lover's paradise, and some musical shows are enormous fun even if you don't speak Spanish or are intimately familiar with the local culture! B.A. is also a great film town and a great place to catch up on movies you may not have seen, plus many foreign films that may never make it to most U.S. markets. There's an amazingly active opera and classical music scene, of course, and endless interesting art exhibits.

 

My experience is that English is more widely spoken in Argentina than in Brazil. Not only are English language schools everywhere, there's still a substantial Anglo-Argentine community in and around B.A., and many tony bilingual private schools where the middle and upper-classes send their kids. English may not be spoken universally, but businesses that cater to visitors usually have some English-speakers on staff. After English, Spanish is one of the most widely spoken and studied languages on earth, and an awful lot of Americans have at least a few years of high school Spanish under their belts. Argentina is a good place to try using it!!! As in Brazil, people appreciate the effort and will be helpful when you make mistakes. So trot out your rusty Spanish and take the plunge!

[Guest msclonly]

I read that Swiss press piece, and it is typical of the travel industrys´ promotional material to keep the planes, hotels filled, etc.

But look at the limited availability of hotels, B&Bs, bars, restrauants, and other venues in BA to see how small the gay (mecca) really is.

For example, Parada Obligada has a crowded show 6 nites a week into the wee hours of the morning. It had a large audience or cross section of local gays, but very few spoke any English, such as the staff, as well as the customers. And it is one of the largest packed venues in town on six nights a week. There were no identifiable tourists. I know when I hear English, German, Russian, French, and Italian being spoken. There were none. And the MC drag asked where many were from. I was the only one from the States. I invited a native of Italian ancestry to join me, since he had the mscl to enjoy it. Or was it for my enjoyment? Yes we used Italian & Spanish words to communicate. But it all worked out in the end and I was happy! Incidently, the MC drags DON¨T understand English, and they are a big part of the tourist industry. They might use a couple of words, but admit No Comprende, when you speak English to them.

 

Even getting a teapot of aqua caliente for tea at a major restaurant in the Puerto Madera area of dining spots along the canal took effort. The Host, Manager, and waiters did NOT understand a word of English. Then half way through the BBQ experience, one of servers with a sword of meat to offer and carve for me turned out to speak fairly good English. Now, that was a rare happening. I did learm to order a ´tetera´ of hot water for the green tea!

 

This was less of a problem during three trips to RIO in ordering.

They understood any reguests easily, and I had a pot of hot water with meals everywhere.

 

[trilingual]

Just be careful in your use of the word "tetera." It's also Argentine slang for "T-room," of which Buenos Aires still has a fairly active collection! }(

[Guest msclonly]

Well, that is interesting, since all the guys standing around the table agreed, that the teapot is called a tetera.

Even when I pronounced it for them.

No one giggled!

 

:+

[Guest dreynsol]

Hi msclony,

 

I appreciate your opinion that the article was promotional, but the Swiss have always been a neutral country and not easily corrupted! :-)

 

Also, I doubt that the International Gay and Lesbian Travel Association, IGLTA, could be so easily corrupted, for financial gain, as to choose Buenos Aires as the site for their annual symposium. I’ve been fooled before, but the IGLTA has been around a long time, and seems to act in our best interest! :-)

 

I have many friends that feel uncomfortable being swarmed at the saunas for the obvious exchange of money. The Gay “circuit” as the article refers to might not be going there for “sex for pay”, even though they might well fit into the Gay scene in Buenos Aires. Some of us like being being the "swarmer", rather than the "swarmee"! :-)

 

It may not be the preferred scene for a lot of us, but it's worth taking note of the changing scene. It may have not have been Rio for you, and I completely appreciate your perspective! It is probably not the same as Rio for me! :9

 

My only point was, I find it comforting that South America is beginning to recognize and accept our Gay brethren, regardless of our agenda –- and I'm sure a lot of them are not M4Mers. But, it can only help the lot of us in the future in terms of a more accepting environment. :-)

 

Tchau,

- Drey

[Guest msclonly]

Wer u fom?

 

Saw the same drag MC at the Search Club, and she asked me

 

¨¨wer u fom?

 

then I asked her if she comprede english?

 

No was the answer as she walked away.

 

Search is a packed basement room with a small stage for a handful of trans and drags to do a show for a group of young mixed CROWD smoking up a storm.

There is one stripper per show and a whole lot of drag lyp sinking and talking with the audience.

It is the kind of place the fire dept should check into in view of the fire. The steps are solid people sitting and standing with no room for more from the front door down to the stage and the urinals.

Show times about 2, 3, 4 AM if you are up to it.

 

}(

[Guest msclonly]

Tourist Organizations

 

I beieve their members who pay dues are the airlines, hotels, rental car agencies, and other travel orientated vendors to encourage travel to their destinations.

 

Now I would call Wilton Manors a gay mecca, but not BA!

 

 

 

 

[Guest dreynsol]

RE: Tourist Organizations

 

msclony, cut me a little slack here. I'm trying to provide information to the group! :-)

 

I did help you with your Yahoo account!

 

Excuse me, and please don't revoke my Gay card, but what is Wilton Manor? I'm on the phone with my travel agent!

 

- Drey :-)

[Guest dreynsol]

RE: Tourist Organizations

 

Sorry to turn my posts into a personal chat room between me and msclony.

 

Now that Winter's over I'll be taking a break for a while. Good luck on your Brazilian adventures! :-)

 

- Drey

[Mouth]

RE: Tourist Organizations

 

Dear Dreynsol,

 

A little slack indeed. The frequent traveler would have to be living under a rock the past two years to not have noticed a giant influx of tourists, gay and otherwise, in Beunos Aires. The dollar does very well against the Argentine peso, but the Euro and pound are providing Europeans and Brits with an excellent value. So why wouldn't they be flocking to this gorgeous city, where Trilingual describes the scene there exactly as it is. I myself saw many Americans and Europeans when I first visited this beautiful city a year ago (I will go again in 2006). Touring the Teatro Colon, I noticed at least six gay people in our group. the bars and clubs are chockful of American tourists. I've seen articles extoling the virtues of Buenos Aires in the NY Times, Food & Wine, Conde Nast Traveler, the San Francisco Chronicle and other publications reporting on this trend. Even on Hooboy there are increasingly positive posts on Buenos Aires as a destination to nearly rival the pleasures of Rio and Sao Paolo.

 

By the way, there are a lot of escort boys in Buenos Aires. I indulged with great results. As far as English was concerned, I had no troubles whatsoever. I think more people there speak a little English--it was enough for this non-Spanish-speaking tourist to get by, even in places like the weekend antiques market where I heard very little English. The place was packed with tourists.

 

Yes it would be nice to speak local languages, but it isn't essential to one's enjoyment. I'm not a resort type of person. When I vacation, I go to the world's greatest cities for music, theater, opera, ballet, museums, great restaurants and people watching. By all means run to Buenos Aires. The warmth of the people is wonderful. Hotels, food, nightlife, culture, attractions and, above all, those gorgeous men, make this an ideal place to visit and return to again and again.

 

<<msclony, cut me a little slack here. I'm trying to provide information to the group!>>

[IamI2002]

You do not argue with TL --plesae -- he is, after all, TRIlingual. He knows all customs in most parts of the world, has a deep knowledge of many languages (apparently Spanish among them) LOL LOL and knows cultural and linguistic nuances that the rest of us mortals will NEVER be able to comprehend, so ... keep quiet, accept and apologize to TL for your un-called-for remark. It is YOU who is and will always be wrong!

 

Curiously, TL made a big deal out of the term MICHE once. During my trip to Rio last week with a friend, we asked a boy at 117, how he called himself and he said "MICHE" I asked if that didn't offend him -- He said NO. It's just like garoto do programa. Of course the boy was only a Carioca and, surely, with limited Portuguese capabilities. Besides, he's not been schooled in MarmieTL finishing Spa, where the appropriate terms for the appropriate things are learned. Curiously also, I met another M4M during my visit and TL came up in conversation. He volunteered that TL wants to be helpful, but often becomes a pedantic nuisance. Probably that's why this individual (not I) saw him eating a plate of chicken alone in Corujinha during his previous trip.

 

TL should lighten up, not aim to correct everyone and everything and live a little.

 

Anyone can flame the hell out of me, if he wants. I have broad shoulders, a hairy chest and a 32 inch waist.

 

And I never go to Corujinha alone (always with Jabba -- giggle--).;-)

[trilingual]

>You do not argue with TL --plesae -- he is, after all,

>TRIlingual. He knows all customs in most parts of the world,

>has a deep knowledge of many languages (apparently Spanish

>among them) LOL LOL and knows cultural and linguistic nuances

>that the rest of us mortals will NEVER be able to comprehend,

>so ... keep quiet, accept and apologize to TL for your

>un-called-for remark. It is YOU who is and will always be

>wrong!

>

>Curiously, TL made a big deal out of the term MICHE once.

>During my trip to Rio last week with a friend, we asked a boy

>at 117, how he called himself and he said "MICHE" I asked if

>that didn't offend him -- He said NO. It's just like garoto do

>programa. Of course the boy was only a Carioca and, surely,

>with limited Portuguese capabilities. Besides, he's not been

>schooled in MarmieTL finishing Spa, where the appropriate

>terms for the appropriate things are learned. Curiously also,

>I met another M4M during my visit and TL came up in

>conversation. He volunteered that TL wants to be helpful, but

>often becomes a pedantic nuisance. Probably that's why this

>individual (not I) saw him eating a plate of chicken alone in

>Corujinha during his previous trip.

 

I grew up speaking Spanish (in Mexico) and I've learned a great deal of Argentine terminology and slang in the more than 20 years I've been visiting the country. "Tetera" may mean teapot in standard Argentine Spanish, but it also means "T-room" in Argentine gay slang, so just be aware of that and the context you use it in.

 

Some Brazilian sauna guys will call themselves "miches," the way some gay people will call themselves "faggots." It still has a pejorative connotation, especially when used by a non-escort. Foreigners should avoid referring to a Brazilian escort as a "miché," especially to his face, because you can't be certain how he will take it and there's no point in inviting problems. "Garoto" or "Garoto de programa" are safe, as they don't have the same pejorative connotation.

 

As for knowing all things about all cultures and languages in the world, I don't, and never claimed to. My knowledge of Asian cultures, for example, is quite limited, and it's not a subject I would ordinarily comment on. I'll also defer to IamI2002 on Arabic culture and Palestinian obscenities. And as far as dining alone at Corujinha, that happens occasionally. The place was slow that evening, as I recall, and I didn't see anyone I knew. As readers can understand, I don't know all M4Mers personally, and if someone doesn't come by and introduce themselves I have no way of knowing they're a kindred spirit. I've also met so many M4Mers over the past few years that I don't always remember everyone if it was only a brief acquaintance. Anytime I'm at Corujinha feel free to stop by and say "hi." :-)

[trilingual]

RE: Tourist Organizations

 

Just like other tourism organizations, travel agency groups and many travel writers, IGLTA undoubtedly received financial incentives from the Buenos Aires and Argentine tourism ministries to hold their meeting there. Such meetings are very important means of helping industry professionals learn about new destinations, or new attractions in old familiar ones, and cities eagerly compete among themselves to attract such meetings. It's only natural that people and organizations trying to sell tourism are going to extol the positive and downplay or ignore the negative of the destinations they're promoting. There are a few exceptions, like the NY Times Travel Section, or Condé Nast Traveller, that will discuss the problems of certain destinations honestly.

 

Travellers should read independent guidebooks, or visit sites like this one, to get a more rounded picture of a destination. A hotel brochure or website may describe it as 4-star, or a 5-minute walk to the city center, when it's actually a fleabag, or in a bad or distant neighborhood. For example, if you look at the website for the Sheraton Rio it won't tell you that it's in an isolated location and literally across the street from a big favela where there are regular shootouts (a LeBoy bartender was killed there in the past few weeks when he got caught in the crossfire between police and drug traffickers). You also wouldn't know that it's not conveniently located to most gay attractions. If you read this website, you will have known about that.

[Guest msclonly]

RE: Tourist Organizations

 

(Tri. We both must have been typing at the same time and your´s got posted ahead of mine, but I am referring to the post above yours by Mouth and Drey! So please don´t take this personal. I also want to thank you for concurring with what I have been trying to say.)

 

Now that really was a promotional piece pointing out articles put out by Agents working for and paid by the Travel agencies promoting a specific destination!

I really don´t know why you(mouth) and Drey think your chains have been pulled or tightened!

 

All week the newspapers here have had stories that Lufthansa Air was going to buy a % of Swiss Air Int. Today´s paper said it was accomplished. Certainly, Swiss Air would have wanted to keep up their loads to keep Lufthansa interested and the price up. Funny, that article quoted at the beginning of this string was in a Swiss publication. I understand these things, since I had a PUBLIC RELATIONS agent at one time. They got articles placed everywhere, when we could not!

But how many Swiss do you EVER meet in your travels?

I have traveled extensively around the world and most of the Swiss, that I have met were in Zurich and Geneva! Isn´t that interesting!

 

Your mention of all the articles in various media, looks to me like an ADVERTISING BLIZT involving a PR firm, and funding by a Travel agency in Argentina. I don´t hold that against them, but it is misleading to many, who would come here for the joys of a ´mecca´.

 

Right now, I have been in the ´gay´ hotel the HOJO in Buenos Aires for a week and can count the Gay tourists on one hand everyday! But there was a hugh group of Russian st8 tourists, that picked the Breakfast buffet clean including the salt and pepper shakers, so you had to get here before them by 8:30 AM if you wanted to eat anything and get plates to put it on. The rest of the people are an assortment of st8 matured couples, who are tourists also. Oh yes, there were also a couple of gays in the crowd, but nothing close to what you will see in SOBE or Wilton Manors!

 

The bars last nite also had about a handful of tourists for the drag shows.

Go to Puerto Vallarta if you want to see a viable mecca.

 

 

Things you read are not always the way things are.

All you have to do is look and listen to see the way things really are.

Incidently, I like it here very much, since it is not a gay mecca.

Am already planning a return trip.

 

My next stop(over) is Atlanta on the way home. I just got a chuckle, when I had the thought, that BA is less of a gay mecca then Atlanta!

You will see what I mean, when you get here.

 

Cheers,

 

:+

[+ Axiom2001]

Damn, it never amazes me that when someone begins an innoncent thread how his information or advice turns into an unnecessary debate and tit- for- tat in most instances..

 

Perhaps a forum after some categoies here should be created where the debating and disagreements and bitchy fighting can transpire.

 

It's truly unfortunate that an innocent and helpful respondent's thread is marred by unnecessary, tit-for-tat jibberish and personal attacks. Come on men, grow up!

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know it's acceptable to agree to disagree! Yes, I'm indeed cognizant that everyone is entitled to his opinion! No, I am not averse to debate or anyone disagreeing with another, but there is a time and a place but not at the expense of destroying one's thread, intentionally or inadvertently! Enough said! Now act cordially!

[+ Axiom2001]

RE: Tourist Organizations

 

>Sorry to turn my posts into a personal chat room between me

>and msclony.

>

>Now that Winter's over I'll be taking a break for a while.

>Good luck on your Brazilian adventures! :-)

>

>- Drey

>

 

 

No, you're fine! I appreciate what you wrote! I wish the writer's would stick to the topic and not go on and on in an attempt to make his point!

 

The topic of English was presented; let it stay instead of attempting to defend! If one doesn't know the native language, then try to adapt in whatever manner possible, and let it be!

[Guest msclonly]

RE: Buenos Aires not the new gay mecca!

 

Last nite out with Mr.(Ital)Ar, I told him that I learned a new word, since we have a cup of green tea before bedtime. So the importance of the word has more meaning. I told him it was ´tetera´, and he immediatelly gave a gesture for a BJ! I had to correct him and hand gesture a teapot for tea. And he agreed right away, that was correct. Funny, how different things can be from what we think!

A good laugh was had by all. And I thought he was straighter, then I!

Can you just imagine how many more people are using tetera wrongly everyday, when they order a teapot of acqua cliente like I did before learning the real meaning!

 

Today´s paper has a article about Swiss Air Int having to trim a lot more expenses to survive. I don´t think they will find plane loads of Swiss interested in the gay mecca to help the bottom line. Nor will Lufthansa, since I have yet to hear German spoken or anyone identify themselves from Germany or Switzerland. And I can speak that language.

 

The MC only found one guy from NY, a couple from Ireland, and two from Puerto Rico to have fun talking with for the crowd´s amusement.

 

 

 

 

 

:+ :+

[Guest msclonly]

How to tell if it is a gay mecc´´!

 

It doesn´t take a genius or book smart to tell, if it is gay mecca destination, even if it would like to be.

 

This is where ´street smarts´ comes into play.

Just LQQK at the number of posts or strings on this board regarding popularity. It is clear enough as to who is in the running, when you compaare all the other posts and strings and interest generated in the RIO and BRAZIL topics compared to this current and manbe only viable one regarding Buenox Aires!

 

That should tell you all you need to know as to where to go for fun!

 

 

:+ :9

[Guest msclonly]

RE: Buenos Aires not the new gay mecca!

 

Extra goodies to get you to come to BA!

 

Right below the Swiss Air Int article was an article about

DELTA Air offering double miles to fill their plane.

Of course, Delta Business Class is full, since I had somewhat of a difficult time to get my trip changed. But I did not check out Coach with the robe barrier keeing me in the Business Class sectopm.

 

 

:+

[Guest dreynsol]

RE: Buenos Aires not the new gay mecca!

 

Msclony, I searched my article and don’t see any reference to Swiss Air anywhere.

 

I am beginning to converse pretty well with the boys in Rio and I’m sure my Portuguese would help me in Buenos Aires since there are similarities in Spanish as well.

 

But, I find it difficult to understand your English. What the heck does “sectopm” mean! Maybe you should concentrate on improving your skills with your own native language before you blame others in following suit.

 

I sent you pics and videos of my last trip to Rio. But obviously, you didn’t appreciate them enough to even read my posts – therefore, “no more soup for you’!:-)

 

IT IS NEVER TOO LATE TO BE AN ADULT! :-)

 

But, never fear fellow M4Mers, I will return when I have something important to add to the group. I hope you realize my only motivation was to provide information so that we all have the best possible experience South of the Border. Hope I’m not appearing to be melodramatic, but I really respect Trilingual for putting up with the likes of some of these posts. He is NOT Mother Superior, but Mother Teresa in his continued patience with a lot of you.

 

- Drey