Brazilian Govt Closes Saunas

[trilingual]

What archives are indicating this? I follow the Brazilian press and several Brazilian gay websites closely, and I haven't seen any mention of this. Brazilian friends also haven't said anything about saunas closing in any systematic way. Certainly businesses like the saunas open and close. It's normal. However, everything seems to indicate that the saunas are expanding, not shrinking. In São Paulo, Lagoa has expanded physically several times in the recent past. Several new saunas have opened in Rio in the past few years (it wasn't that long ago that Roger's was the only game in town) and recent postings on this board talk about the opening of a new and very large place in Copacabana in the next few months. This will supposedly replace Roger's, which may be closing because of disagreements among the owners. If so, none of this has anything to do with the Brazilian government. Besides, on what basis would the government close the saunas? Prostitution isn't illegal in Brazil, and the saunas aren't bordellos. The escorts who frequent them work for themselves, not for the house, so there's no issue of pimping involved.

 

The only immediate threat to the saunas, from what I can see, is the bad behavior of some foreign visitors, who are giving the guys ideas that could easily lead them to kill the geese that lay their golden eggs. Roberto reports that some of this has been going on in Buenos Aires, too. If that's the case, I think I'm going to regret having shared information with South America here, because the thoughtless ones are going to ruin things for the escorts, for the local patrons, and for visitors. Maybe I should have just kept the information to myself. . .

[+ Axiom2001]

I just hope that future visitors to South America (Brazil in particular) will wise up and come to their senses. Personally, all of this is new to me, and I'd like to continue to enjoy and explore and appreciate a continent and culture and its people to broaden my experiences and being.

[Guest Mark]

The archives are all indicating, albeit the good experiences some have, of the slow demise of Brazilian saunas. All that is needed is for the media to know this, generate the publicity the Brazilian govt does not want and the crackdown begins.

 

The best thing is to not to post any more of those intimate experiences if you want the saunas to survive longer.

 

Otherwise, say goodbye to the saunas.

[Guest Ernani]

Well.... prostitution is not illegal in Brazil, but, technically, Saunas are. I am a lawyer and a prostitute, so, I know what is forbidden and not about this matter.

To be a hustler is not against the law, but, to maintain houses for sexual paid encounters is illegal, according to the Article 229 of the Penal Code ( Código Penal ).

Sometimes Police are closing straight Saunas, depending on the Government. Some undercover policemen goes there, discuss prices with the girls, don't have sex with them and then, they come back to sue the Sauna. Policemen has "fé pública" ( public faith ? ), wich means his word prevails against the whore and the House owner.

I know that, because in my job - my "respectable" job, I mean - sometimes I read legal processes from Government suing these houses.

Maybe because gay saunas are only 10 % of them, policeman do not focus his attention on these houses .

But, the new Governor - Rosinha Garotinho - told she is going to fight prostitution houses in Rio. She belongs to a very conservative branch of Protestant religion. She will be the Governor in 2003, so, I don't know what she will do, but, I hope she doesn't read this web site. Hmmm.... maybe she does not speak / read English . . . who knows ?

[Guest Mark]

Thank You Ernani for the clarity.

 

Gentlemen, welcome to the impending BIG CHILL. Your explicit descriptions of sauna experiences are self-destructive. Silence is the best strategy to avoid attention and trouble.

 

Your catty responses and verbal missives to one another are all mutually destructive, and is good fodder for media coverage.

 

Laws are subject to change. No leader would like to be seen as tolerating houses of pleasure or allowing foreigners who are in the sex business.

[trilingual]

I appreciate Ernani's explanation of the legal situation of the saunas. It's never been clear to me under what circumstances they operate. Never having patronized the "straight" saunas with women, I can't say how they're set up. In other words, I don't know if the girls actually work for the house (unlike the gay saunas, where the guys work for themselves). If the girls do work for the house, then the place would be a bordello, which would undoubtedly fall under Article 229 of the Criminal Code, cited by Ernani. It isn't clear if the gay saunas fall under this provision or not, because in theory any place where a commercial sexual transaction took place (like a bar or restaurant or hotel room) could fall under the language cited by Ernani and could be closed. I suspect that wasn't the intent of the law or how it's actually enforced. Maybe Ernani can tell us a bit more about the doctrine/jurisprudence surrounding that provision.

 

In any case, the police and prosecutors have wide discretion in what they're willing to enforce, and at least so far there doesn't seem to be a "virtue" campaign going on. The incoming governer belongs to the evangelical movement, but she's basically succeeding her husband in the governorship. There weren't any particular problems with the saunas during his time in office, and he's just as evangelical as Rosinha (the new governor). The incoming national government is likely to be the most gay-friendly one yet, and there's increasing recognition of the political power of the gay community, so I don't see big signs of some kind of impending crackdown. Also, the new governor and the new national government have much bigger problems facing them than some gay saunas, and I really doubt that experienced businessmen like the owners of Estação and Lagoa would be on the verge of opening a big, expensive new establishment in Rio if they thought it was going to be closed down right away. So, I'm still waiting for any indications that "Mark"s worries are based on anything solid.

 

If "straight" saunas with girls get raided, and I'm sure they do on occasion, I suspect that it may be because they aren't paying off the cops satisfactorily, or there have been complaints about patrons being ripped off/drugged/etc., and/or the girls are being exploited by the owners, or all of these things! Perhaps Ernani knows and can comment about the circumstances of the raids on "straight" saunas. However, I'm not sure that you can extrapolate from the circumstances of the "saunas with girls" to the gay "saunas with escorts."

 

On another note, I rather doubt the Brazilian police read or even know about this site (unless "Mark" is feeling public-spirited enough to bring it to their attention). There are plenty of Brazilian sites, in Portuguese, that list, discuss and advertise the saunas, individual escorts and escort agencies. I look at them regularly, and there hasn't been any indication on any of those sites that they feel like they're under surveillance or that there's any impending peril to the gay sex trade. On the other hand, I do agree with "Mark" that discretion is a good thing when you're in Brazil, and especially for foreigners. It may be a relaxed kind of place, but that doesn't mean there are no standards at all. For example, walking through the lobby of the Marriott or the Copacabana Palace in a state of inebriation, with a gaggle of young guys in tow, would be the kind of behavior that would raise eyebrows and might lead LOCALS to start complaining. Nobody, anywhere, likes gross in-your-face kind of behavior, so have as much fun as you want, but keep it discreet and low-key and avoid attracting attention to yourself or your companions to keep trouble away. In fact, I think one of the reasons the saunas thrive in Brazil is exactly because they provide a discreet place for men to do what they wish without it being in the face of the general public. Brazilians largely subscribe to the theory that what goes on within the confines of four walls is nobody else's business. As long as people keep their carousing within the four walls of the saunas or other specifically gay places, there shouldn't be many problems.

[Guest BicepsLover]

I fully agree with you, Mark. Giving too many details about what happens in the saunas or about the boys who work there, discussing fares, not to mention those who post pictures, is quite risky.

As in any other countries, a new president, governor or mayor can decide to close places of this kind to increase (at low cost) his popularity ( it would be much easier for the new RJ governor to close the saunas than to fight the gangs of drug traffickers who are responsible for so many murders in Rio) : all the right-thinking people would agrre with that.

The question is : where to draw the line. I have no answer to that.:-(

[ad rian]

>As in any other countries, a new president, governor or mayor

>can decide to close places of this kind to increase (at low

>cost) his popularity ( it would be much easier for the new RJ

>governor to close the saunas than to fight the gangs of drug

>traffickers who are responsible for so many murders in Rio)

 

Do you have a reason to believe that Lula reads this site regularly when looking to set his public policy priorities? Prostitution is a working man's profession, and Lula is a working man'r president rumored to have several Monica Lewinsky's at home. He is on our side!

[trilingual]

I'm sure Lula doesn't read this site. For one thing, I don't believe he speaks English. However, any likely problems in Brazil are liable to arise at the state and local government levels, and not at the federal level. I don't think Rosinha, the newly-elected governor of the state of Rio, knows English, either.

 

As they say, "never say never," but I still haven't seen any particular signs of an impending crackdown in Rio. Except for a brief interval under an interim PT governor, Rio was governed by the husband of the incoming governor. (He had to resign at least six months prior to the end of his term because he ran for President, and the vice-governor replaced him for the balance of his term.) Garotinho, the previous governor, is an evangelical and relied heavily on the evangelical vote both as governor and in his race for President. Yet there were no actions against the gay saunas (escort or otherwise) during his administration. The gay saunas are not a topic of discussion in the press, there's no citizen's campaign going on to "clean up Rio" (at least with respect to gay venues) and the new state government is going to be overwhelmed with real issues that are current topics of public discussion, like large-scale child malnutrition in the poor suburbs of Rio. There will be press and public pressure to deal with that issue, along with many others, and there won't be many political points to be made by going out after gay saunas. It may be hard for some non-Brazilians to understand, but adult commercial sex isn't an issue that most Brazilians care about. Furthermore, Brazilian voters aren't stupid. They know perfectly well (or would if they thought about it for more than a second) that closing a couple of gay saunas isn't going to feed their kids, get them jobs, provide them access to education, health care and decent housing, or put a stop to violent crime, which are the issues Rio voters care about most. Also, Rio has a municipal government and mayor (who is of a different party than the new governor), which means Rosinha won't have a free hand in meddling in local city affairs. In any case, she will have her hands full dealing with state-wide issues, of which there are more than enough!

 

Just to put things into historical perspective, the gay saunas, including the ones with escorts, have been operating for more than 20 years, through all kinds of administrations, including the moralizing military dictatorship. (The military was still firmly in power when I first went to Brazil in 1983 and experienced the wonder of Roger's and many of the non-escort saunas.) This leads me to believe that these establishments have staying power, regardless of the kind of government in power. So I'm not losing sleep over what seems to me a fairly remote possibility something might happen to the saunas anytime soon.

[+ Lucky]

I agree with tri, the police don't need this site to learn what happens in the sauna. Mark just seems jealous that he's not getting any!

[Guest Ernani]

<< Maybe Ernani can tell us a bit more about the doctrine/jurisprudence surrounding that provision.>>

What else can I say about this matter ? My statements are based on my legal knowledges in this area and on what I read in the legal processes in my job.

 

Saunas can be closed at any time, as I said, technically. It means, they can close these houses according on what is in the criminal code ( article 229 ). Gay bars and Sex Hotels are not included in this category, since they are not considered houses of prostitution. You can go to a bar to drink, cruise someone, etc..., but it's not a house. You can go to a Sex Hotel to have sex, but, it's not exclusively to bring prostitutes. It's hard to prove you paid someone in the room, whereas, Saunas are specifically to rent boys. They are already there offering their bodies for money and it's very explicit. Anybody can see that. The owner can't defend himself by telling authorities he didn't know all these boys there were for sale. There is a legal therm called "Teoria da Aparência" ( theory of appearance ) in wich you can't deny what is so obvious. Anybody in a Sauna can clearly see in 3 minutes there that the house houses prostitutes. You can even distinguish who is a client, who is a hustler, unlike regular bath houses.

 

The Owner can hire good lawyers and tell in court he never knew those boys were there to work. Judge can even accept that defense ... But... what if Prosecutors print all these statements in this web site with so many details, with all those posts telling sexual experiences with boys including prices, etc... ? It surelly will be a very convincing proof of the real objective of those Saunas.

 

Also, there another legal therm called "Clamor Público" wich means... ohhh ! I wish my English was more developed to explain that. It means, Public Opinion can be a big influence on Judge's decision.

If, by chance, O Globo newspaper - for example- reads this web site (and they do know English ) with all these "dirty" posts/statements - such as : how to "exploit" sauna boys, by trying to pay them the less possible because they are in miserable conditions, how to make the most of boys paying them little money, not overpaying hustlers, avoid giving them tips, etc... If these posts are kind of shocking for me , can you imagine when the middle-class population read these articles in the "respectable" newspapers ? Something like : Americans coming to Brazil to take advantage of straight young kids sexually.

These boys - lots of them under 21 y.o. ( barely legal age ) were supposed to be in School, and not selling themselves in prostitution houses.

 

Middle classed people in Brazil have a strong decision power and they can easily become indignant when they found out what is going on here, and that is the chance Rosinha Garotinho will have to become more popular.

Especially because fight prostitution is one of her goal ( unlike her husband Anthony Garotinho, who has been nonchalant about it ).

 

Well.... I don't know if my informations and opinion can be taken as an advice.

My English is limited.

Anything can be possible.

In my case I'm not worried at all. To me, it's irrelevant, since I don't need Saunas.

Boa Sorte !

[ad rian]

>Also, there another legal therm called "Clamor Público" wich

>means... ohhh ! I wish my English was more developed to

>explain that. It means, Public Opinion can be a big influence

>on Judge's decision.

>If, by chance, O Globo newspaper - for example- reads this

>web site (and they do know English ) with all these "dirty"

>posts/statements - such as : how to "exploit" sauna boys, by

>trying to pay them the less possible because they are in

>miserable conditions, how to make the most of boys paying them

>little money, not overpaying hustlers, avoid giving them tips,

>etc... If these posts are kind of shocking for me , can you

>imagine when the middle-class population read these articles

>in the "respectable" newspapers ? Something like : Americans

>coming to Brazil to take advantage of straight young kids

>sexually.

>These boys - lots of them under 21 y.o. ( barely legal age )

>were supposed to be in School, and not selling themselves in

>prostitution houses.

 

Thanks for giving this local flavor. You will no doubt have seen that not all our on-line Brazil nuts are at all shy about their paternalism.

[handyandy]

>In any case, the police and prosecutors have wide discretion

>in what they're willing to enforce, and at least so far there

>doesn't seem to be a "virtue" campaign going on.

 

>Also, the new governor and the new national government have

>much bigger problems facing them than some gay saunas,

 

I appreciate all of tri's abundant information and I generally agree with his advice, but there may be something here that is getting overlooked.

 

There is wide discretion, yes. And many borderline legal or somewhat illegal activities, or activities which the mainstream might think of as "immoral" or might disapprove of, enjoy a hassle-free existence with a wink and a nod from the police or other authorities (often after a$$i$tance from $ome other $timuli), in the US or Brazil or anywhere else, AS LONG AS EVERYTHING IS QUIET AND ATTENTION IS NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS THEM. But when a lot of attention is focused on them things can change very fast.

 

I agree that the new governor or other top officials or the police are almost certainly not monitoring this site. But it might come to the attention of someone who doesn't like the activities and who might want to bring it to the attention of various people or media in the hopes of making a lot of noise about the situation and getting the activities shut down. (Are there such people in the world? Has anything like that ever happened? Naw, couldn't be.)

 

Ernani's post below about "Clamor Publico" is right in this vein. And it doesn't even take O Globo to be reading this site. I doubt very much that they do as a newspaper. If someone from there is reading the site it is probably out of interest like the rest of us. It just takes a Brazilian Jerry Falwell or Pastor What's-His-Name from Kansas or one of their followers to stumble on it (web search on Brazilian saunas? monitor Brazilian escorts' websites and find a link to the guy's reviews?) or to be directed to it by someone. And then they publish an article in their local newsletter and hand out flyers on the street. And then it gets picked up by a newspaper or TV station. Or they go on a letter-writing campaign to the authorities or their legislators. And then... well, you get the idea.

[handyandy]

Ernani said

 

>all these "dirty"

>posts/statements - such as : how to "exploit" sauna boys, by

>trying to pay them the less possible because they are in

>miserable conditions, how to make the most of boys paying them

>little money, not overpaying hustlers, avoid giving them tips,

>etc...

 

Interesting that he should get that interpretation from what has been said here, and it may indicate that this is how it strikes Brazilians in general. A friend of mine who is also a Brazilian had essentially the same interpretation of those discussions here and expressed it to me a few weeks ago. Even our own ad rian in the current thread about overpaying seems to have interpreted it to mean "don't tip," which is not at all what was being said.

 

That's not my interpretation of what was being said, and I don't think it was what was intended by the authors. It seems very clear to me that they were saying "pay the going rate established by the local economy," and not "try to pay the boys the least possible" or "how to pay them the least possible" or "avoid giving them tips." I didn't take any of the discussions as being about "how to 'exploit' sauna boys," but rather as being about "fit in with the locals and go with the flow."

 

But obviously (many) Brazilians take it differently, and I am sure the same would apply to citizens of other underdeveloped countries and about other kinds of activities or commodities. It's easy to see that they would feel that "Americans come here to get ________ because it's cheap" (which is at least partly true in many or most cases), and they don't want to feel like "cheap goods." It doesn't matter if that's the reality of the situation - that's their perception, and it causes a lot of resentment. I got an angry earful from my Brazilian friend, which was not like our other interactions.

[trilingual]

Perhaps a less-than-perfect knowledge of English might lead a Brazilian reader to interpret the original postings on this subject as somehow proposing exploitation, but any fluent English-speaker or reader will know that's not the case. My original postings, for anyone who cares to re-read them, strictly urge foreign visitors to pay the going local rate and to tip reasonably (i.e. 10% - 20%) in order not to distort the local market. That's all I ever suggested.

 

In some other post a while back I also said I don't try bargaining with the boys (as some locals do) unless they are asking for more than the usual price. Considering the standard rate, which is reasonable on its face in the context of the local economy, I think bargaining's unseemly. So, to sum up, I don't recommend or urge exploitation. All I've said is observe local custom, pay the standard rate, and tip within reason.

 

As for the local political situation, I certainly don't want to get into a debate about it on this board with Ernani, who lives there and is much closer to it than I am. I can only hope that he's wrong and that Rosinha (despite what she may have said during her campaign) will find her hands full with real problems to take care of. Besides all of the other issues mentioned previously in this thread that are burning in the minds of Rio voters, summer is almost here and so is the mosquito season. There already are reports of some hemorragic dengue cases. If there's another dengue epidemic on the scale of last year's, and the federal/state/municipal governments are STILL screwing around on mosquito control and leaving the populace to its own devices, I don't think anybody's going to be worrying a lot about a couple of gay saunas! Dengue will once again be the page one story every day, all summer long! (BTW, summer visitors should remember to take their insect repellent!)

 

Ernani, you express yourself very well in English, and your explanation of the law is helpful. The part I'm still confused about and would like to see you explain is if there's a legal difference in Brazilbetween a bordello (where the prostitutes work for the house and are frequently exploited by the owners) and a place like the gay saunas, which are similar to hotels (i.e., they provide a private place where people can have sex, including paid sex, but the house itself doesn't employ the people who provide the sex or directly profit from their activity). Is that what Article 229 says? Or means? (I'd like to read the original text in Portuguese. Is it on-line someplace?) The reason I ask is that if ANY place where the proprietor knows that commercial sex goes on falls under Article 229, there's hardly a five-star hotel in Rio that couldn't be closed under its provisions. Not to mention the truly obvious and notorious heterosexual "Help" disco, which is intergalactically known as the place for lusty foreigners to pick up rentable Brazilian women!

 

I still don't think that Brazilians, on the whole, give a hoot about adult commercial sex, except when street prostitution gets out of hand in some particular spot and starts disturbing the residents day and night, or attracts muggings and other violence. (The "Help" disco is locally unpopular because of those problems, but manages to stay open, probably because of pay-offs.)

 

Sex with minors (in Brazil those under 18) and child/teenage prostitution are entirely different matters. Those are issues that do upset Brazilian voters and the press and they are unquestionably against the law. As I've said in other posts, Brazil is not the place to visit if you're looking for sex with minors. People, including prominent foreigners, are arrested and convicted for such acts fairly frequently. I'm sure Ernani will agree that nobody here would want to become intimately involved with the Brazilian criminal justice system as a defendant, or spend any time at the mercy of the police or in a Brazilian prison as a convicted child molester (no matter what police/prison fantasies you may have back home)! Patronizing the saunas is a way to avoid this problem, because the owners screen the age and ID of the guys who go there to keep minors out. Patronizing Ernani or Artur is another way, because they are definitely hot MEN, not hot children! :9

[ad rian]

>But obviously (many) Brazilians take it differently, and I am

>sure the same would apply to citizens of other underdeveloped

>countries and about other kinds of activities or commodities.

>It's easy to see that they would feel that "Americans come

>here to get ________ because it's cheap" (which is at least

>partly true in many or most cases), and they don't want to

>feel like "cheap goods." It doesn't matter if that's the

>reality of the situation - that's their perception, and it

>causes a lot of resentment. I got an angry earful from my

>Brazilian friend, which was not like our other interactions.

 

Well it comes down to the old rule that actions speak louder than words. Tri and Axiom are so convinced that their motivations are so noble that they are blinded to the arrogance of their paternalism. So too was Rudyard Kipling! I also think that Braziians and others from developing countries are less likely to be convinced by such local context arguments because they can see clearly that there are very limits to exploitation engaged in by even the supposedly best intentioned "eco-tourist" (double entendre intended).

[Guest Ernani]

<<The part I'm still confused about and would like to see you explain

is if there's a legal difference in Brazil between a bordello (where the prostitutes work for the house

and are frequently exploited by the owners) and a place like the gay saunas, which are similar to

hotels (i.e., they provide a private place where people can have sex, including paid sex, but the

house itself doesn't employ the people who provide the sex or directly profit from their activity). >>

--------------------------------------------------------------------Yes, Tri, there is a difference: in a Bordello you fall under Article 228 of Criminal Code - : To induce or facilitate someone into prostitution ( 2 to 5 years in jail ). || Article 229 : To maintain house of prostitution.... etc...

======= When it comes to Sex Hotels, they are not exclusively for prostitution. All kind of people goes there for sex, paid or for free. It's hard to prove that someone was paid inside the room. Even Owner can't tell who are prostitutes or not. He can even be suspicious, but he can't tell who is having paid sex. As for Saunas, the prostitutes are already there, waiting for clients - unlike sex hotels.

=======Help is a club where whores and clients meet there, but, they are there to dance, drink, discuss prices, and the girls are not having sex inside the Club. They go somewhere else to get paid for sex, not inside Help club. So, it's also hard to prove.

----- Despite you can clearly see the girls at Help are whores, they are not naked and having sex and getting paid in there.

In a Sex Hotel, there is no prostitutes waiting for clients. They go there for sex and after that, go out.

So...... what makes Sauna different from Help or Sex Hotel is a combination of these 2 places : The prostitutes are already there ( like Help ) + Clients have paid sex with hustlers ( like Sex Hotels ). In a Sauna it's very obvious it's a prostitution house - ( not like Help: it's a house where prostitutes dance with clients, they don't have sex in there ).

------- I hope I could explain better the difference about these 3 kinds of houses. Forgive my English.

------- What is more: These posts can be printed in all details and be shown in a Criminal Court to prove that the Sauna has been housing prostitutes for all these years. So, wich excuse the Owner could give with these posts printed out ?

******* As for the new Governor, I agree, it's much easier to use these houses as a Main Headline ( ? ) to distract population from other problems. During Carnival, World Cup, etc... nobody cares about violence or economy... they are focused on these events. It all depends on how press conduct the news: they need to sell newspapers and to have some articles about "Web Site teachs how to bargain with boys in Saunas" or: "Straigth boys who have to have gay sex with men in Saunas to survive", etc.... You know, maybe press ( and population ) would be impressed about these posts in M4Mescorts, since this kind of web site has never seen before. It's a new thing.

......... Well, it's all speculation from my part. I can't forecast the future with Rosinha Garotinho and I don't care.

As I said before, I'm not worried at all. I don't use Saunas. I live 1 block from the biggest Sauna in Rio and I never go there. I pick up clients in a different way - ( oh ! I'm a whore too !)

[trilingual]

>( oh ! I'm a whore too !)

 

Ernani, that's one of the things I love about you! Your brutal honesty! }(

 

If the law in Brazil is as you describe (and I don't question your expertise in this area) then it would seem that the sauna owners do run some legal risk. On the other hand, considering that saunas with escorts have been in existence in Brazil for more than twenty years and there are establishments of this kind in virtually all large Brazilian cities, it doesn't seem that they're a very high priority for law enforcement. Since criminal law in Brazil is federal, it's the same nation-wide. Considering that, you'd think there would have been legal actions against the saunas before now, especially in conservative, macho places like Rio Grande do Sul. Yet the escort saunas in Porto Alegre have been happily entertaining customers for almost as long as the ones in Rio! Similar saunas in São Paulo have also been around for a long, long time.

 

If the saunas run a risk of prosecution, as you described, the postings on this site certainly would not be helpful to them. However, the saunas are widely publicized on Brazilian sites, in Portuguese, with clear descriptions of the fact that they feature escorts. The saunas also advertise in the local gay press, appear in local gay guides, and some even advertise in Spartacus, clearly stating they have escorts available. I assume the sauna owners are familiar with their own legal situation and either they don't feel at risk or they've calculated that the risk of of prosecution is minimal. Otherwise, they wouldn't put their businesses and livelihoods in jeopardy by advertising or allowing themselves to be listed. If public exposure is a danger for the saunas, I doubt that the M4M site is likely to be source of that, given the ease with which any hostile Brazilian prosecutor can access the saunas' advertising and listings in local media.

[trilingual]

>( oh ! I'm a whore too !)

 

Ernani, that's one of the things I love about you! Your brutal honesty! }(

 

If the law in Brazil is as you describe (and I don't question your expertise in this area) then it would seem that the sauna owners do run some legal risk. On the other hand, considering that saunas with escorts have been in existence in Brazil for more than twenty years and there are establishments of this kind in virtually all large Brazilian cities, it doesn't seem that they're a very high priority for law enforcement. Since criminal law in Brazil is federal, it's the same nation-wide. Considering that, you'd think there would have been legal actions against the saunas before now, especially in conservative, macho places like Rio Grande do Sul. Yet the escort saunas in Porto Alegre have been happily entertaining customers for almost as long as the ones in Rio! Similar saunas in São Paulo have also been around for a long, long time.

 

If the saunas run a risk of prosecution, as you described, the postings on this site certainly would not be helpful to them. However, the saunas are widely publicized on Brazilian sites, in Portuguese, with clear descriptions of the fact that they feature escorts. The saunas also advertise in the local gay press, appear in local gay guides, and some even advertise in Spartacus, clearly stating they have escorts available. I assume the sauna owners are familiar with their own legal situation and either they don't feel at risk or they've calculated that the risk of of prosecution is minimal. Otherwise, they wouldn't put their businesses and livelihoods in jeopardy by advertising or allowing themselves to be listed. If public exposure is a danger for the saunas, I doubt that the M4M site is likely to be source of that, given the ease with which any hostile Brazilian prosecutor can access the saunas' advertising and listings in local media.

[+ Lucky]

The suggestion that we might want to censor ourselves lest the things we say here become known by the Brazilian people is an interesting one. Of course they would be shocked to read some of the things we write. But then, so would middle America!

Anybody can read the posts here, but for me the forum is an opportunity to express myself, not censor myself. If other people can't deal with it, that is their problem. But more likely, most people just don't care what is written here. They have their own lives to deal with!

[+ Lucky]

The suggestion that we might want to censor ourselves lest the things we say here become known by the Brazilian people is an interesting one. Of course they would be shocked to read some of the things we write. But then, so would middle America!

Anybody can read the posts here, but for me the forum is an opportunity to express myself, not censor myself. If other people can't deal with it, that is their problem. But more likely, most people just don't care what is written here. They have their own lives to deal with!

[straightshooter]

trilingual,

 

yr worst fears have been realized.

 

yr generosity in sharing yr accumulated information has been 'abused' by the most avid of yr readers. and it's too late for you to do anything about it.

 

the sauna scene here will never be the same as you once knew it.

 

my friends who work in the saunas are not idiots and follow these messages. why is that such a shock? they will continue to extort as much as they can get inside the saunas and on the streets from foreigners. they know how desperate gringos are for their services and the price differential between their originating and visiting cntries.

 

ad rian is absolutely spot on here. simple economics. tri, yr readers have used yr information and ruined what was once a one-way street for you and others. we will maximize the economic rent that we can receive in every single encounter. isn't that our right?

[Guest Deweywop]

You're probably right. As I said elsewhere, I view this as a sharing of information among a small group with like interests. If this changes "paradise," then let's talk about something. By the way, when I was in Brazil last year in early summer, miches outnumbered clients about 3 to 1 everywhere I went. Even with the real's continuing slide, I notice that there's still no inflation in the sauna rates in Brazilian currency since last year. In that context, it will be interesting to see how the studs will extract increased rent. Especially when trilingual is no longer sending horny north americans down Rio way. Let economics rule indeed.