Overpaying (Reprised) - PLEASE DON'T!

[trilingual]

Without wishing to get into yet another endless discussion on the subject (see earlier threads on this topic for all the polemics) I just want to reiterate to travelers to South America, and especially the first-timers: DON'T OVERPAY AND OVER-TIP. This just distorts the local market economy, confuses the guys, pisses off the local clients (who are the escorts' daily bread-and-butter) and just generally is a bad idea. Also, the guys know what the local market will bear. Believe me, they're not underselling themselves!

 

One of our recent posters mentions paying a guy in Buenos Aires 300 pesos instead of the 150 asked for. I understand wanting to be generous, but please, guys, keep things in perspective. 150 pesos is quite a bit of money in Argentina, even in these troubled times. If the young man in question asked for 150 pesos, but provided exceptional service (and this particular instance involved an extended engagement) an additional 50 pesos would be a very generous tip. Tipping 100% or more is excessive. You wouldn't do that at home, and you shouldn't do it in South America. Visitors who overpay will get a reputation for being easy marks, and once word gets around, everyone they go with will expect the same amount. Worse, guys will try asking all foreign visitors for that. So please, guys, don't do this.

 

Also, please don't let your judgement be overcome by the fact that a favorable exchange rate makes visits to Brazil and Argentina cheap for Americans and Europeans. When you pay a guy (or tip him) put things into the context of the local economy and local prices. When you consider the cost of local bus/subway fares (which is how the guys travel) and the price, say, of a workingman's lunch or dinner at an ordinary restaurant, you'll see that 150 pesos is not an insignifcant sum. 300 pesos is more than many people make in an entire MONTH. For reference purposes, at the time this is being written the Brazilian real and the Argentine peso are very close in value. US$1 = approximately 3.50 in either pesos or reais. Putting things into perspective, public transit fares are in the 1.50 range, in either pesos or reais; a very decent meal can be had for less than 10.00 pesos/reais. The current monthly minimum wage in Brazil is 200 reais/mo. It's not a whole lot more in Argentina. It's virtually impossible to live on the minimum wage in a big city like Rio or Buenos Aires, but working class people commonly can make it if they earn three times the minimum wage, or R$600/mo. At R$50 an encounter, a guy can earn that with 12 clients per month. Most of the guys do better than that, so don't feel you're underpaying at the going local rate. In terms of the local economy, that's a fair price.

 

Reasonable tips for exceptional service are certainly OK. However, remember that you can also show your appreciation by taking an escort to dinner, or, if at the saunas, treating for snacks/drinks or offering to put his admission on your account. You can also give small gifts, like cologne or a nice T-shirt from your home country. All of these are thoughtful things to do and make the recipient feel that you appreciate him as a person and not just as a commodity. That goes a long way anywhere, but especially in Latin America.

 

As a general guide, for guys you meet at the saunas in Brazil, exceptional service merits an extra R$10 - 20 on top of the standard R$50 fee. R$5 to the locker room attendant and the bartender will be appreciated. (They don't usually get tipped by the locals, so anything extra you give them will get you more attention/better service.)

 

At restaurants in Brazil/Argentina, look to see if 10% has been added to the bill for service. (Some do, others don't.) If it has been added, and the service has been good, you can leave another 5%. If the service was ordinary, just leave the coins that came with your change. If service wasn't included, then just leave the 10%. (When it's included in the bill, the waiters don't always get all of it; if it's not included and you leave it in cash, they get the full amount.) Tip hotel porters/bellcaps at least a couple of reais/pesos, more if you have more than one bag. You don't tip in taxis in either Brazil or Argentina, but it's customary to round the fare up to the nearest whole peso/real.

 

I hope this helps clarify the mysteries of payment and tipping in Argentina and Brazil, especially for the newbies.

[ad rian]

>Without wishing to get into yet another endless discussion on

>the subject (see earlier threads on this topic for all the

>polemics)

 

I just love your rabbinical tone: "listen to me lecture youad nauseam but dn't deign to reply." You sound like Rabbi Neulander addressing sermonizing to the jury in the death penalty phase of his trial. Are you related?

 

>I just want to reiterate to travelers to South

>America, and especially the first-timers: DON'T OVERPAY AND

>OVER-TIP. This just distorts the local market economy,

>confuses the guys, pisses off the local clients (who are the

>escorts' daily bread-and-butter) and just generally is a bad

>idea. Also, the guys know what the local market will bear.

>Believe me, they're not underselling themselves!

 

Aren't you the same old queen who recently treated us to the following self-righteous gems in defense of your supposedly disinterested altruistic assistance to young Mr. Bruno?

 

"I take a special interest because I owe Brazilians like Bruno an immeasurable debt for the extraordinary and overwhelming hospitality, kindness, generosity and friendship they have shown me over the years. I'm glad to be able to repay their kindness in any small way I can."

 

"I suppose that explains why you can't understand people who are capable of acting altruistacally. It's alien to your nature. In fact, your entire nature is alien."

[Reed]

The sauna boys may already be developing an expectation that foreigners will pay higher rates. On my first visit to Estaceo I was greeted in the locker area by Dalton, who is every bit as handsome and charming as described elsewhere. He graciously showed me around the facility and, after a drink, he suggested a cabine for a massage. That sounded great to me and off we went. He administered a nice massage, followed by a little kissing and some minimal body to body action...no anal on either part. All in all, a nice 10 to 15 minutes or so and a nice low keyed way to break myself into the sauna scene.

 

I returned to the locker area and, sensitive to the advice from this board on overpaying, I pulled 60 reals out of my pocket to pay to Dalton. Before I could hand it to him, he approached me and said he wanted 100 reals. I handed him the 60 and he pressed the issue, insisting that I owed him 100, for providing two services...massage and sex. It was an unpleasant encounter, rather heated, witnessed by everyone in the locker area. I felt someone was trying to take advantage of me, but not knowing much Portuguese it was tough to deal with the situation. I simply shoved the 60 in his hand and returned to the bar area and ordered a beer.

 

To his credit, Dalton soon approached me and apologized for the misunderstanding. He asked if he could join me for another drink and assured me that everything was okay. Following that, he asked a local English speaking client to tell me the same thing. Still, it was an awkward situation and I cant help but feel the confrontation left the other boys in the sauna with the impression that I was cheap.

[Guest AustinMarc]

I assume you are mainly referring to the quickies in the saunas. I had two escorts (Artur and Caique) spend extended time with me there and went above and beyond the call of duty regarding my safety and pleasure. It was rewarding for me to take care of them as well. The guys in the saunas who spend 15 minutes with you: 50R. The look on young Caique's face when you take him shopping for designer black leather pants*: PRICELESS. (*Kids!!.... I tell ya'!)

[Guest fukamarine]

Americans are well known for over-tipping, even in their own country, so I guess it is unrealistic to expect them to park their tendancies at the airport, when travelling.

 

I wonder why they overtip - could it be a sense of guilt that another person is waiting on them? Dunno! Just wondering.

 

fukamarine

[CT Dick]

>Aren't you the same old queen

 

This posting is entirely out of line.

 

Dick

[ad rian]

>>Aren't you the same old queen

>

>This posting is entirely out of line.

 

Hey, I just quoted from a post where he was personally abusive to me, and in the same thread also said the following:

 

"...Because he seems like a nice kid who hasn't been around the block that many times, at least not with evil queens from the Northern Hemisphere..." when referring to those of us who have criticized the Bruno marketing campaign.

 

Even at Thanksgiving, what is good for the goose, must be good for the gander. That said, if we all resist personal attacks, there will be no such responses.

[xchris]

Another reason for DO NOT OVERPAY!.

 

Some people could be forced to be generous by the idea that the local economy is down and everything is cheap in comparison with their home economy.

 

But reais or pesos a couple of years ago was 1=1 with dollar.

If Andres asked you 150 USD, would you give him 300 instead just because you had nice time with him?

 

Other consideration. If for a financial distortion a government decide to fix a political change of 2USD=1 real or peso, so the price of 150 peso means 300 USD, would you pay him 600 USD for the same reason?

 

Well. Sometimes the amount of money means exactely this high for people from other countries different from USA. And for brazilian and argentinos now definitely is.

 

World is changing so quick. Maybe tomorrow, somewhere we could face the result of someone overpaying.

 

Chris

[trilingual]

>Aren't you the same old queen who recently treated us to self-righteous gems in defense of your supposedly disinterested altruistic assistance to young Mr. Bruno?

 

Can anybody here figure out how Bruno or Rabbi Neulander have anything to do with the subject of overpaying/tipping. I'm afraid it strains my limited intellectual capacity. . .:-)

 

Actually, I consider my posts on this subject to be highly altruistic: They're intended to protect visitors to South America from being foolish and/or being taken advantage of. They're also intended to protect local clients, and the local escort business itself. If expectations and prices get distorted because of foreigners who overpay, it will all collapse. Local clients (who are the everyday bread and butter for these guys) won't be able to pay such prices and will stop hiring, and foreigners will stop coming if they feel prices have been jacked up artificially and they're being taken for a ride. That would be bad for everyone: local clients, escorts and visitors alike. It would be especially bad for the escorts, because most of them are working class guys who desperately need what they earn to keep their families' heads above water during these terrible economic times in South America. There's very little work and very high unemployment in Argentina and Brazil, especially for young people without much training or education, so ruining this business would hurt a lot of people, and not just the guys themselves. The only people I can imagine being happy with that outcome are "ad rian" and his Opus crowd, who really think people should be celibate and flagellate themselves while accumulating cash for the greater glory of their strangely-loving deity. . .

[Guest Mark]

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No message

[ad rian]

>Can anybody here figure out how Bruno or Rabbi Neulander have

>anything to do with the subject of overpaying/tipping. I'm

>afraid it strains my limited intellectual capacity. . .:-)

 

I was poking fun at how no matter what subject you write about here, you can't help but preach to your congregation.

 

>There's very little work and very

>high unemployment in Argentina and Brazil, especially for

>young people without much training or education, so ruining

>this business would hurt a lot of people, and not just the

>guys themselves.

 

Of course, if the escorts are paid more, they might have mre money to support themselves and their family. At any rate, reading the past threads on the subject, it seems that your hypocritical self-righteous "altruism" has been well exposed for all the Board to see. I just love your consistency. With Bruno, your avice to him was gouge the Gringos, you did not seem to do a dynamic economic analysis in that case. But where it suits you, you feign all this concern for the poor local clients and escorts in Brazil and Argentina. I think it is the highest form of paternalism and cheapness for someone to try to rip off an escort while travelling. If you can't afford to treat escorts wwith dignity hen you travel, either stay home or spend your money on something else when you travel, but God's sake don't pretend that you are Mother Theresa when you rip them off.

[Guy Fawkes]

Guys, can you please just drop the snipping at each other. There are a lot of people here that would like to get back to the original discussion.

 

If your going to dish at each other, go do it in the lounge where it belongs. I will delete any more off topic posts to this thread.

[Rick Munroe]

Trilingual or anyone who knows: here's a dumb question (from a dumb whore). Are these Brazilian saunas only for escort services? Or can one hook up with hot ("straight" or otherwise) guys for free? I think I'd be certain not to upset the cart if I paid nothing. Or are there other places/areas I should hit that aren't stictly for escort/client hookups?

[+ Axiom2001]

Before I went to Brazil in October of this year, I used the valid advice cited by the men of this site. It helped tremendously; it kept me from encountering any difficulties inside as well as outisde of the saunas.

 

I wish that travelers would do their homework by reading before going off on a journey and then encountering conflicts or embarrasments.

 

If Adrian wants to contribute to Brasilian society-- donate some money to a school to help the children. Gordon Parks, a renowned US photographer for LIFE magazine, musician, poet, writer went to Brazil (in the 70s) (Rio) to do a photographic essay related to life in the favelas. He befriended a little boy named Flavio. He also bought a house for this young man's family and.... (Read about Mr. Parks .)

 

Adrian-- give the sauna guys gifts, as Tri suggested. DON'T overtip! (And since this issue has appeared on this oard before, and since there was endless debate, I'd suggest to all MEN OF THIS FORUM to cease being so damn pigheaded and go with the flow. I am one WHO IS ANTI exploitation. I consider myself a progressive activist politically... ENOUGH SAID...

[+ Axiom2001]

...liked your response, man. I printed these ten pages awhile ago to give to my friend who will be traveling with me to Rio during Carnaval in February-- March 2003. He overly tips. I don't intend to bail him out of any embarrassing situations if he encounters them. I've told him emphatically that in this country, 15% - 20% is the going rate for tips-- not more!

 

(Tipping is an sob. My father reiterated to his five kids the importance of tipping especially to individuals in service positions. But he did not tell us kids to overdo it. He stated if the service is exceptional then we might go above the custom, but the latter was more of an exception than the norm.)

 

(A few months ago I went to my favorite Chinese restaurant in my area and ordered to go. When I arrived, a female waitperson brought my food out to my auto (something which I had not expected or something which she did NOT have to do). Now for this special attention as well as service, I tipped her. But normally, I try NOT to tip for take out of any kind unless really special service or some extras of kindness has been extended.

[+ Axiom2001]

Fuckamarine's statements were the ones that I agreed with along with others who are pro following protocal and economical strategies.

 

Before having this thread receive 60 or more responses, please fellows, check the archives and read about over tipping in the saunas for rent boys in Brazil.

 

Rick, I think in Rio there are saunas similar to the bath houses here (nondefunct in SF, but there are sex clubs). The saunas mentioned at this site are primarily rent boy ones.

[ad rian]

>Adrian-- give the sauna guys gifts, as Tri suggested. DON'T

>overtip! (And since this issue has appeared on this oard

>before, and since there was endless debate, I'd suggest to all

>MEN OF THIS FORUM to cease being so damn pigheaded and go with

>the flow. I am one WHO IS ANTI exploitation. I consider

>myself a progressive activist politically... ENOUGH SAID...

 

Personally, I don't care if you tip or you don't tip when you travel, I just find the self-righteous rationalizations nauseating. I travel widely all over the world, and I have formed a particular contempt for the "Ugly - You Name the Country" travellers who bitch about paying a price for a service that he would pay without hesitation at home. It betrays a lack of respect for the esential worth and dignity of fellow human beings, but ok if you must be that way do so, but at least have the honesty to say that you are doing it because you are cheap and selfish, not that you are an altruistic fellow traveller.

 

Where do you stop? If asked by an escort to use a condom here, you probably would, but are you prepared to say that there you would not because you can get away with it either because of the local custom or local economy? Ditto for bare-backing? Ditto for boys below the age of consent? It is precisely this kind of thinking that has all those Lufthansa flights heading to Thailand, Costa Rica Brazil etc, and has led to the growth in exploitation of minors and AIDs rates in the developing world.

[Guest Tomcal_]

I haven't posted in awhile, for a couple of reasons, first, you are trying to help others and invariably you will be critiqued/critized by some queen sitting in his barcolounger/ trying to feel self important/superiour, etc. But i have to jump in here, having posted extensively on this topic last summer/fall. First, Tri has done more for this board and the guys going to S.A. then anyone, he has taken abuse by some guys(one in particular who is beyond bizarre!)and still keeps coming back offering insight and advise. I have been to Rio 4 times in the past 12 months and have seen first hand how guys by guilt/generosity...whatever, have made a rather simple system now become many time confrontational. the guys in the saunas now assume if you are American/Canadian they can get much more! and if you dont' offer it they get nasty. I just got back yesterday from London, i met a guy from this board who had this kind of problem in Lagoa in S.P. when the boy demanded more then the std. $50. reyas and when he said no, the desk person would not get a taxi for him as he walked out he was grabbed by several guys from the suana, with a knife held to his throat and had all his cash taken. Would the boy have demanded more if everyone had stuck to the $50 . reyas std??

The impression of almost all of the boys is that Americans are oozing cash. I got three separate emails in the last week from three different boys in Rio. None of whom know each other and they all are asking for $300. to $500. U.S. for "family emergency's". Scam? You bet? they think we have unlimited money to throw away. As i said in a previous thread, one of the boys I know well said to me "if you over tip they don' think you are a great guy... they think you are Stupid!!!"

[trilingual]

>Trilingual or anyone who knows: here's a dumb question (from a dumb whore). Are these Brazilian saunas only for escort services? Or can one hook up with hot ("straight" or otherwise) guys for free?

 

Rick, just about every Brazilian city of any size has at least one gay sauna. In the bigger cities like Rio and São Paulo, where there are multiple saunas, they tend to be divided into exclusively escort saunas and exclusively non-escort ones. In smaller places, the saunas may be mixed. By all means, you and other readers should consider exploring the non-escort saunas. If you're not young and/or hunky, you'll probably not have much luck at certain places like Spa 64 (or whatever it's called) in Ipanema or Thermas For Friends in SP. However, other non-escort saunas get more mixed-age crowds, and it bears repeating that there are a surprising number of hot, younger Brazilian guys who are attracted to us older, less stunning types!

 

As this is a site about escorting, I've focused here on the escort scene in South America, but there is certainly much more to gay life there than the escort saunas/agencies. Rick, I can assure you that you'll have a great time if you go. Just go hang at the gay beach in Ipanema and look fetching. You should have a whole crop of new friends before the afternoon is over! There's also plenty of night life of the non-escort variety, so go check it out, too.

[ad rian]

>As i said in a previous thread, one of

>the boys I know well said to me "if you over tip they don'

>think you are a great guy... they think you are Stupid!!!"

 

I often wonder whether my waiters and waitresses in New York don't think the same thing when they get a 20% tip? The bottom line is that there is simply no justification to pay a 10% or 20% tip here but not there. Or if you tip $50 on a $250.00 call here, then a similar tip there is justified. If not, you are just plain cheap. All other rationalizations and explanations could equally apply here: - "Don't spoil the natives, or they might revolt!" How revolting!!

[Guest Mark]

Ad Rian

 

Not all of us want to exploit anyone. Of course, we want to help everyone we can. But the Sauna system does address the issues you care about. In the saunas, the boys are independent, no need to work with a pimp, no need to fear being imprisoned. No abuse.

As patrons, we are not being cheap or selfish. We do give gifts but we also would like to work within the system. Would you give a 50% tip in the US? Would you pay someone, e.g. a lawnmower, double above the agreed rate everytime?

There are other avenues to help without creating more trouble as one respondent said. If we were not in Brazil, these boys would have no income at all.

In the saunas, protection is encouraged. Even if boys, who they themselves offer to bareback, a number of us refused for mutual protection. And if we think they are minors, of course we refused, totally. We were all minors once.

As someone has alluded, these overtipping is NOW changing the sauna scene slowly but surely. The boys are getting smarter and nastier and the lives of clients are now in danger outside the sauna doors. Is that what you want? If the total abolition of safe saunas is your desire, then don't worry, it is happening. We just have to settle with $300 escorts in the US who will not let us touch them, and threaten us physically if we "over" request. In fact, there was just one recent news of a murdered client by a Las Vegas escort.

You worry about abuse of the sauna escorts. Don't you care about us?

[xchris]

Adrian interest about equal rights over the countries, and equal payments sounds to me morally interesting, even if I find this forum important for the ideas about THE DIFFERENCIES you can find in South America in acting and behaving.

 

As an italian anyway I don't ask spaghetti in a foreigner country, nor dress expensive watches in Rio, or show digital video cameras in a poor favela, or wear gold necklaces in Caracas.

 

I assume that every different country need my respect and this involves my knowledge of the differences from the usual way of acting I have in my home country.

 

Wherever sex is a business, the more you get, the happier you are, and this not only in sex matters. But the market give always a context reference.

 

Even in Maroc, when boys find a tourist who flashes his full wallet, they call him THE VICTIM.

 

Ciao

CHRIS

[+ Axiom2001]

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[ad rian]

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[trilingual]

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