When Two Worlds Collide...

[+ Lucky]

Given that he has been attacked for posting what he did, it doesn't surprise me if Cougar is reluctant to name names. One of the consequences of doing so is to invite retaliation from the escort named, as well as his fans. So, unless you have unequivocal proof and a hard shell, better to remain silent.

[woodlawn]

RE: Unrealistic Expectations?

 

>Given that he has been attacked for posting what he did, it

>doesn't surprise me if Cougar is reluctant to name names. One

>of the consequences of doing so is to invite retaliation from

>the escort named, as well as his fans. So, unless you have

>unequivocal proof and a hard shell, better to remain silent.

 

 

You make a good point. When Cougar posted a negative review of Aiden from Tampa, explaining that he had hired Aiden for a vacation trip for which he had made elaborate and costly arrangements and Aiden never showed up, Aiden posted a response accusing Cougar of making the whole thing up. If he posted a review accusing another escort of stealing a credit card from his wallet, what do you think that escort would do?

 

I find it hard to understand why several posters have chided Cougar for having unrealistic expectations. Is a client being unrealistic if he thinks that he can leave the room for a few moments without having an escort steal something from his wallet? Is it unrealistic for him to expect that if an escort accepts a dinner invitation, the escort will actually show up at some point? I agree that anyone who expects to get real intimacy or friendship by hiring an escort is probably setting himself up for a disappointment, but that isn't what Cougar is complaining about. It seems to me several posters here are bending over backwards to find some way of blaming Cougar for the fact that he was victimized by thieves and con artists.

 

What Cougar seems to be saying is that if he has to deal with people to whom stealing and lying are as natural as breathing, then hiring escorts isn't worth it. Clearly not everyone here feels that way, but that certainly is a position a reasonable person could adopt.

[+ cougar]

RE: Unrealistic Expectations?

 

>

>What Cougar seems to be saying is that if he has to deal with

>people to whom stealing and lying are as natural as breathing,

>then hiring escorts isn't worth it. Clearly not everyone here

>feels that way, but that certainly is a position a reasonable

>person could adopt.

>

 

Woodlawn,

You have done a great job of understanding and expressing my thoughts, much better than my clumsy attempt.

:-)

[HotdadENYC]

RE: Unrealistic Expectations?

 

This is one of those instances where the written reply is not only an excellent response, but a damn good recap of what the original poster was trying to get across.

 

I think you did a nice job woodlawn helping to clarify cougar's position.

 

When I first read the post, I focused TOO quickly on the fact that cougar was no longer going to hire, and I skimmed over the underlying reasons. Maybe because it all sounded too familiar.

 

What is also beginning to sound way too familiar is the recurring theme that people are afraid to post, reply, name names or get specific out of fear for a backlash from members of this community.

 

Regardless of what you ultimately decide to do, cougar, good luck.

 

hd NYC

 

"You're still doing things that I gave up years ago"--Lou Reed

[woodlawn]

RE: Unrealistic Expectations?

 

>Woodlawn,

>You have done a great job of understanding and expressing my

>thoughts, much better than my clumsy attempt.

>:-)

 

If I was of any help, I'm glad to hear it.

 

I'm sorry to hear about the bad experiences you've had. I'm especially sorry to hear that some of those bad experiences were with escorts who have multiple positive reviews on this site. That just goes to prove something I've long believed: positive reviews here are not a reliable predictor of a given escort's behavior.

 

If it's any comfort to you, my opinion is that your experience is not very unusual among clients who hire frequently. After reading this board for several years, I have the impression many clients take the position that being robbed or lied to is something they have to deal with if they want to hire. They think the sort of people who become escorts, with all the deceit and subterfuge that business requires, aren't likely to have a problem doing other deceitful things to further their own interests -- if you want the one, you have to put up with the other, so to speak. Perhaps it is unrealistic to think you can find someone who is willing to engage in a business that requires deceit and subterfuge to survive, but who adheres to a standard of complete honesty and integrity in every other respect. Nevertheless, I don't think you or anyone should be blamed simply because he was robbed or cheated. Crimes are the fault of the people who commit them, not of the victims.

[BgMstr4u]

Cougar and BG and others have expressed the biggest reason why I don't hire more often: fear. I guess this post is a sort of coming out for me. I want to have sex with escorts, but on top of my natural caution there is the knowledge that sometimes things go really, really wrong, and do I want to risk that?

 

As often as not when I have hired, I have been ripped off, usually by guys who aren't what they say they are, or are actually not very interested in doing what they say they will do. My luck in this is rotten, but I have met some really wonderful guys as well, and continue to live in hope.

 

I have not posted reviews of these encounters because of exactly what Woodlawn just said above: "When Cougar posted a negative review of Aiden from Tampa, explaining that he had hired Aiden for a vacation trip for which he had made elaborate and costly arrangements and Aiden never showed up, Aiden posted a response accusing Cougar of making the whole thing up. If he posted a review accusing another escort of stealing a credit card from his wallet, what do you think that escort would do?"

 

Part of why some of my encounters with escorts have been good is that they have been "discrete events" -- that is, they happened as they should have happened and when they were over, they were over. I have fond feelings for some of the guys I have met -- some from the 80's and 90's in LA linger in my mind to this day. But some encounters have not been good and have left me feeling terrible, as when a guy shows up and doesn't look anything like his pictures, and to get rid of him, I pay him anyway. Or when I discover that an escort has ripped a check from my checkbook and emptied my account. Or when an escort threatens physical violence if I don't pay him more than we agreed. All of which have happened to me.

 

I think it is pretty easy for an escort to figure out who wrote a review that tells the truth. If he wants to cause trouble, he can. Most don't, but some do. I can't afford the trouble, so I don't write about it.

 

So that's my confession. I am afraid when I pick up the phone to speak with an escort (caller id), and I am afraid when I hire, even after I've had a good time, until I know that there aren't any repercussions. I'm probably the only one on the board who feels this way, and terminally neurotic, but there it is.

[HotdadENYC]

Must have taken a lot for you to post this, but I'm glad you did.

 

 

Good luck,

 

hd NYC

[Apex_Rob]

>I'm probably the only one on the

>board who feels this way, and terminally neurotic, but there

>it is.

 

I doubt that you are alone. And I'm sorry that your experiences have been so foul :-(

 

-Rob

[noviceny]

Yeah, me too...sucks that ya had all that shit :-(

[woodlawn]

>I have not posted reviews of these encounters because of

>exactly what Woodlawn just said above: "When Cougar posted a

>negative review of Aiden from Tampa, explaining that he had

>hired Aiden for a vacation trip for which he had made

>elaborate and costly arrangements and Aiden never showed up,

>Aiden posted a response accusing Cougar of making the whole

>thing up. If he posted a review accusing another escort of

>stealing a credit card from his wallet, what do you think that

>escort would do?"

 

 

Although this website may have been created to give clients a safe place to discuss their experiences with escorts, it clearly hasn't achieved that goal for many. I don't criticize Hooboy for that, because I don't know how to solve the problem myself.

 

> Or when I discover that an escort has

>ripped a check from my checkbook and emptied my account. Or

>when an escort threatens physical violence if I don't pay him

>more than we agreed. All of which have happened to me.

 

Sorry to hear it. But not surprised.

 

>So that's my confession. I am afraid when I pick up the phone

>to speak with an escort (caller id), and I am afraid when I

>hire, even after I've had a good time, until I know that there

>aren't any repercussions. I'm probably the only one on the

>board who feels this way, and terminally neurotic, but there

>it is.

 

There is nothing neurotic about being afraid of dealing with people who are involved in crime. On the contrary, it seems like a natural and healthy response to an extremely risky situation. The clients I don't get are the ones who seem to assume that people who commit one crime (like prostitution) would never dream of doing anything else that is unlawful or dishonest.

[Hugobay69]

"The clients I don't get are the ones who seem to assume that people who commit one crime (like prostitution) would never dream of doing anything else that is unlawful or dishonest."

 

The escorts I don't get are the ones who put up with clients who have this mindset about their chossen profession...show some respect here. In this type of relationship it takes TWO (2) to completely commit said crime.

 

It's late, I've had a few drinks and many laughs with the usual mates...

 

Enjoy

[woodlawn]

>The escorts I don't get are the ones who put up with clients

>who have this mindset about their chossen profession...show

>some respect here.

 

My 'mindset' tells me that in this country you can't be in the prostitution business for long if you're not willing to engage in a certain amount of deceit and subterfuge to conceal what you're doing from the authorities and others. Logic tells me that if a person actually engages in deceit and subterfuge to make money, that shows he is willing to engage in deceit and subterfuge to make money. With what part of that do you disagree?

 

>It's late, I've had a few drinks and many laughs with the

>usual mates...

 

Thanks, I was really anxious to know how you were spending your evening.

[Hugobay69]

Logic? Logic tells me that for one thing one cannot judge morality on what is law. What logic tells me is that it is illogical to believe that if one breaks the law, thus committing a crime, correspondingly means such individual is lacking morals. Logic tells me that is quite a contradiction to piss on oneself when the world that one is sitting in is based upon "breaking laws," ranging from science, religion to politics. Do you want to know what logic tells me? Logic tells me that the type of person who would make such an illogical statement does not actually understand the philosophy be that of logic and ultimately would be, in lieu of more appropriate adjectives, making an ass of themselves.

 

If one is going to argue an argument using logic, they should really be sure to use the philosophy correctly.

 

All I asked was show a little bit of respect for the gentlemen in this profession. It is quite insulting to classify all escorts in the "more likely to commit theft," just because they are an escort as it would be equally inappropriate for me to classify YOU in the "less likely to get laid" category because YOU are a patron of the profession.

 

Enjoy

[augustman]

Dear Woodlawn and Jay:

Thanks for adding some nice biting comments back and forth. Best discourse since VM's open letter. Does add some life to a tired subject.

To the best of my knowledge in most locales both sides are committing a crime to what level will vary. To run the string from prostitution to theft, lies and deceit does seem a stretch. It would be like saying if I cheat on my tax return I will cheat the escort. What the conversation does support is discretion about ones personal property when entering into service agreement. I only take items and funds required for the event to any meeting and for overnights, that is what hotel safes are for. It may be an inconvenience but not to take proper precautions when going into any meeting is a bit foolish. As to losing out when the escort does not show up for the ticket, I have felt at least I am only out the travel and hotel, usually the fee is much higher and that the guy did not get it. I do know some escorts who will refund the unused ticket to the client which is super, but I do believe is an inherent risk. Has not happened to me yet, but I am prepared for the possibility. To avoid any confusion if there is a meeing or not I always send copy of the flight schedule and hotel confirm to the gentleman and always expect a response back and if not I call until I get one, up to now have not had to worry. But it does take work and effort on my part and I do expect the same from the escort.

[noviceny]

Very interesting,

 

I see the nature of the two "crimes" as being in seperate categories :

 

1) Crimes against the law - prostitution seems to me to be a crime against the law. It takes nothing from another person and supposedly "destroys the fabric of society." In reality, I think its based on a morality system. Whatever the case may be, crimes against the law are commited very easily by many of us...cheating on taxes, etc.

 

2) Crimes against people : direct theft would fall in to this category ; it takes a "special" type of person to be able to take something from someone they "know"

 

I think yall see my point...whether you agree with it our not is up to you.

[Epigonos]

Well damn – I’ve managed thus far to avoid getting involved in this threat but Jay’s two responses no longer make that possible. I fear that the background information, regarding myself, that I feel required to preface my remarks here with will bore some readers but so be it.

I am 64 years old and have been hiring escorts now for approximately two years. During that time I have hired approximately two dozen escorts and have reviewed about twelve. None of my reviews have been anything but glowing. Why didn’t I review the other dozen, or so, escorts that I have hired you might ask? The reason is simply that those experiences were less than stellar, erotic fantasies. That doesn’t mean that these unreported meetings were bad, they weren’t. It simply means that for some reason or other the two of us didn’t click. I know for a fact that on some occasions the problem was with me and on other occasions it was with the escort. The important point here is that in ALL of my encounters, with ALL of these escorts, I have ALWAYS been treated honorably, fairly and with consideration. NOT ONCE have I been cheated, blatantly lied to nor has anything ever been stolen from me. Conversely I have always treated the men I have hired honorably, fairly and withconsideration. NOT ONCE have I cheated them, blatantly lied to them nor have I ever stolen anything from them. As far as I’m concerned the key issue here is MUTUAL RESPECT. I am, of course, aware that there are both ESCORTS and CLIENTS out there who do not treat each other honorably, fairly and with consideration and who also cheat each other, blatantly lie to each other and even steal for each other. I fortunately have NOT experienced that type of behavior. I attribute that to the fact that I scrupulously research, on this site, the escorts I intend to hire and the fact that I admire and respect the men I do hire.

Now as to the point that because escorts are breaking the laws by practicing there chosen profession it is likely that they will be willing to break other laws, I have only one thing to say – THAT’S FUCKING BULL SHIT. I find it ridiculous, absurd, stupid and hypocritical in the extreme that is our society two unmarried people, of any gender, can have sex together legally as long as no money changes hands. This is totally unfathomable to me and only indicates, once again, just how fucked up our society is.

In closing it is interesting to me that two escorts, who I HAVE reviewed, are involved in this thread. First, I spent two incredible evenings with Aiden in Tampa, Florida nearly two years ago. He damn near set the sheets on fire and I have been trying to get back to Tampa every since. More recently I spend a dynamite evening with Jay of Los Angeles. This guy is hot, Hot, HOT. Both of these gentlemen, and that is what they are, are GREAT AND HONORABLE HUMAN BEINGS.

[woodlawn]

>Logic? Logic tells me that for one thing one cannot judge

>morality on what is law.

 

I don't know what country you live in, but here the opposite is true. Our system of enacting laws at both the state and federal levels is deliberately designed to prevent the passage of any law unless a broad consensus of opinion exists to support it -- and sometimes even the existence of such a consensus isn't enough. In the case we're discussing, any public opinion survey you consult will show you that such a consensus does exist on the subject of prostitution. The vast majority of Americans do consider it a bad thing.

 

 

>What logic tells me is that it is

>illogical to believe that if one breaks the law, thus

>committing a crime, correspondingly means such individual is

>lacking morals.

 

I'm not sure whom you are addressing with this sentence. I don't think you can find anything in any of my posts in this thread stating that anyone who breaks the law necessarily lacks morals, so perhaps you are talking to someone else. The point I made is much simpler: if you know someone has a history of using deceit and subterfuge to achieve his goals, it's easier to predict whether he'll do the same thing in the future than it is to predict whether someone whose history you don't know will do that.

 

>Logic tells me that is quite a contradiction

>to piss on oneself when the world that one is sitting in is

>based upon "breaking laws," ranging from science, religion to

>politics. Do you want to know what logic tells me? Logic tells

>me that the type of person who would make such an illogical

>statement does not actually understand the philosophy be that

>of logic and ultimately would be, in lieu of more appropriate

>adjectives, making an ass of themselves.

 

If anyone can translate the above into English, please do.

 

>All I asked was show a little bit of respect for the gentlemen

>in this profession. It is quite insulting to classify all

>escorts in the "more likely to commit theft," just because

>they are an escort

 

I understand what you're saying, but whether it's insulting or not it seems quite logical to me. Giuliani and Bratton used much the same approach in cleaning up New York -- they focused police resources on relatively minor offenses that previous administrations had tended to ignore on the theory that people who break one law are more likely to break others. It seems to have worked rather well.

 

>as it would be equally inappropriate for me

>to classify YOU in the "less likely to get laid" category

>because YOU are a patron of the profession.

 

On the contrary, I see nothing inappropriate (or illogical) about it.

[woodlawn]

>I see the nature of the two "crimes" as being in seperate

>categories :

>

>1) Crimes against the law - prostitution seems to me to be a

>crime against the law. It takes nothing from another person

 

>2) Crimes against people : direct theft would fall in to this

>category ;

 

The distinction you're making sounds vaguely like the distinction our legal system makes between offenses that are 'mala in se,' or bad in and of themselves, and those that are 'mala prohibita,' not bad in themselves but only because they are prohibited by law. Prostitution is considered 'mala in se' because of the harm done to the community, including, in many cases, the families of married persons who hire prostitutes. It is quite common here to say that prostitution is a 'victimless' crime. But if no one is victimized by it, why is it that neighborhoods so often object to having their streets populated by streetwalkers or that hotels prefer not to have prostitutes operating on their premises? Clearly there are some people who feel victimized by prostitution. In order to take the position that many on this board take, it's necessary to ignore those people or disparage them so that their feelings are no longer given any weight.

[duke37]

Is there an objective standard to determine what is or is not a 'victimless" crime? Or is the only standard that someone somewhere feels victimized by the act? I'm sure there are lots of people who feel victimized and offended that that other people engage in acts that fall under the traditional definition of sodomy. And these others even have places to go just to find others willing to engage in acts they consider offensive. Yet the law at least recently is quite willing to disregard their concerns.

 

Is there some objective standard that makes prostitution bad and not just unpopular?

[sean92]

excellent post.

 

sounds like our friend has had a tough time of it. I agree that, at the end, in comes down to having realistic expectations (I know, I know, we are talking about sex....).

 

Hope he learns from this and the next time he hires an escort, 'cause there will be a next time, it works out better...

 

sean

[augustman]

Although Cougar has had his bad experiences, I still find hard to believe that just because a person is an escort that he is more likely to commit other crimes just because of opportunity or be ill mannered in not showing up or show other bad behavioral traits that are not just as common in other non-criminals. I mean is not one the first things I see in most descreptions of clients "I do not like the hassle of meeting guys in other forms-bars, personal ads, etc., that why I like to use escorts."

 

I can not tell you how many times I have been stood up, calls not returned, hotel rooms paid for and worst of all meet up with somone and have him say "Oh your not what I thought you would be!" Even the times that were not the best, I still had a relatively good time with the guy I was with. And to be honest, that was better than nothing. I was even robbed by one of these so-called non-criminals, I was fortunate to only $20 and my wallet.

 

I just do not think it is appropriate to just dump escorts into the same bag as street prostitutes. I think there is a difference. It was the street prostitution which many times goes hand-in-hand with street drug trade and that is what New York worked on. It has been my experience that the escorts I have chosen to be with have more on the ball and actually most of them probably had higher standards than their clients including me. I try to make sure drugs are not included in the review history of the escort. I check the tone of the rebuttals on bad reviews. There are times I still let my dick cloud my judgement. But that is my problem.

 

I definitely consider my self lucky so far, but I think that goes with checking the credetials and connecting with the escort to make the experience be worthwhile for both. I do not think any of the guys are trying for sainthood, but to make the six degrees of separation in one degree is a push. Buyer be ware of course and take precautions but that goes with any first time meeting.

[+ cougar]

>In closing it is interesting to me that two escorts, who I

>HAVE reviewed, are involved in this thread. First, I spent

>two incredible evenings with Aiden in Tampa, Florida nearly

>two years ago. He damn near set the sheets on fire and I have

>been trying to get back to Tampa every since. More recently I

>spend a dynamite evening with Jay of Los Angeles. This guy is

>hot, Hot, HOT. Both of these gentlemen, and that is what they

>are, are GREAT AND HONORABLE HUMAN BEINGS.

 

 

I have remained quiet when it comes to naming the three escorts that I mention in my post. The first two escorts, I had run into in an AOL chat room. These two guys are now long gone. The one who stole my credit card had even deleted his profile by the following day, and to be honest, I can’t remember his name.

As for the escort who took $300 to rent a car to come here and never showed up or called with the provided phone card was Aiden of Tampa. I do have to give him credit that he did come to my house unannounced about six weeks later to return my $300 partial payment for the over night we had planned for the first week in August 2004. I have been very reluctant to name him because it is my complete fault for not recognizing his callous attitude toward me, an established long-term client. I am just naive and just too much of a trusting guy and did not have the balls to cut all ties as any other client would do. I am certainly old enough, but was too damn stubborn and reluctant to acknowledge that his behavior did not deserve any more of my effort or money.

Aiden almost set the sheets on fire with me many times, either at my home or in a hotel room. So, Epigonos, I agree with your comment regarding Aiden’s ability to setting the sheets on fire, and at one time, I too would have agreed how his sexiness, smile and infectious personality leaves a desire for you to come to Tampa to see him again, it had a spell over me for way too long; but I have to disagree with your comment regarding him being a great and honorable human being.

[woodlawn]

>Is there an objective standard to determine what is or is not

>a 'victimless" crime?

 

In law, the term "victimless crime" has no meaning. Criminal penalties are applied to actions that do harm to individuals and to actions that do harm to the community even though no individual is harmed. Is obstruction of justice a victimless crime? In the typical case, no individual is victimized, but the process of justice that protects the community as a whole is impeded. Two presidents were nearly thrown out of office for it and Martha Stewart is in prison right now for it.

 

It is often said that the purchase of illegal drugs is a victimless crime, but no one who has ever attended a support group for family members of addicts could possibly believe that.

 

Is anyone victimized by prostitution? You might start by asking the wives of men who have hired prostitutes.

[duke37]

>Is anyone victimized by prostitution? You might start by

>asking the wives of men who have hired prostitutes.

>

>

I understand the opposition to adultery. What makes it more objectionable if the man paid for it than if he got it for free?

 

Is there an objective standard that shows that one is more objectionable than the other?

 

Jeff

[Hugobay69]

">Logic tells me that is quite a contradiction

>to piss on oneself when the world that one is sitting in is

>based upon "breaking laws," ranging from science, religion to

>politics. Do you want to know what logic tells me? Logic tells

>me that the type of person who would make such an illogical

>statement does not actually understand the philosophy be that

>of logic and ultimately would be, in lieu of more appropriate

>adjectives, making an ass of themselves.

 

If anyone can translate the above into English, please do."

 

It was an insult. I overestimated your intelligence. I do apologize. It won't happen again. And with such realization, you must forgive me for as I have forgotten my place. You never saw Homer arguing with Icarus...woodlawn you have the floor.

 

Enjoy