Here we go again

[axebahia]

>This escort -- adhereing to a not uncommon escort trick --

>will keep holding out the hope of "friendship" (i.e., "you're

>not just a client to me, but someone I REALLY care about") in

>front of your nose, leading you around while you crawl after

>it the way one can lead around a puppy and make it obey by

>holding a treat in front of its nose. And your penetrating

>need to have him like you, to have him see value you in

>independent of the fact that you pay him for sex, will

>endlessly cause you to keep crawling after him handing over

>money, hoping to be fed.

 

You might be right about his motives, but I think you are wrong about mine. I do hire a lot of escorts, and for the most time I have a good time. However, I do think that most escorts are fugible. I know that I can have a good time with A escort in location X, so I don't need to import B escort from location Y. I repeat that I have not initiatd the contact with this escort in January or now so I don't think that supports emotional dependance on my side. All things being equal, if we were still in the same city and were he still escorting full time, I would probably hire him from time to time as before, but the extra costs involved versus what's available locally makes that not so intreresting.

 

I guess that I am also not so quick to discount the possibility of escort relationships turning into freindship plus sex because that has certainly happened to me on one other occasion. As some have suggested here the question I am trying to balance is whether he is clearly "hustling" me or whether I can spend a weekend with a "friend" at a cost that makes sense in relation to other posibilities.

 

If I go through with it, I will defintely not pay an ex post fee so I guess my question here is more in the nature of whether I can get ex ante support for that decision here in light of the fact that I have clearly made my position known to him, whether or not he has accepted that position.

[axebahia]

>Question: is your hesitancy to be explicit with him now about

>the fact that you will NOT be paying a fee based at least

>partly on a) a fear that he won't want to have sex if he

>doesn't see a chance of getting more money out of you and b)

>your desire not to find out the answer at least until it's

>"too late?"

 

I honestly don't know. I have asked myself the same questions but I think it is just like our disagreement about how much additional data I have to ask a verstile escort if I want him to bottom for me. I think it is crass to ask more than that. I think by doing so I put the escort on notice that he should be prepared to bottom, and I dislike mood-killing particulars. Similarly here, I think if I say that I will pay only for travel and time with me in a context where someone calls me and says he misses me and wants me to fuck him, I don't see any reason for me to go any further. For me, at that point, if he wants his fee the onus is on him to ask for it.

 

Why do you not think the onus reverts to him at that point? When I shop for any other product or service, it is up to the seller to state his terms. If he does not, or if I make an offer or counter-offer, it is up to him to accept or reject. Why would it be different here?

[+ nycman]

>...I say the answer to your query is punt.

 

Wait!

 

Punt...as in...Charlie Brown run at the ball Lucy is

going to pull away AGAIN!?!?!?

 

-or-

 

Punt...as in...pass on this manipulative loser?

 

OK...time for my expert opinion.....

 

Pass on this kid.

 

He is capitalizing on intentionally blurred lines.

 

Even if you get up all your courage and stare him down

when he asks for his fee...who needs the headache?

 

In the words of Miss Manners...a simple "thanks but no thanks" will suffice.

[Guest Joseph]

This has happened to me several times. Escort I had been seeing on regular basis stopped escorting. Then month later calls with the "I'm Missing You" conversation. Translation: they had stopped escorting because of a situation that is no longer workable and they need to get their escort business up and going again. Always remember, it is a business for the escorts. Never allow yourself to believe the fantacy. Enjoy it but don't believe it.

Please do not consider my ideas as negative as I do very much appreciate the services provided by escorts. Have many friends who escort.They work very hard and deserve our respect and appreciation.

[axebahia]

>This has happened to me several times. Escort I had been

>seeing on regular basis stopped escorting. Then month later

>calls with the "I'm Missing You" conversation.

 

OK, but when they called with the "I miss you" conversation, did you ever set up another encounter where you told them that you would no longer pay their fee or where they agreed to see you without stating the fee up front?

[Guest Joseph]

YES, but by the time the weekend was over I end up helping them out with rent or a loan as if we were just good friends...and that was ok as I assumed that would be a part of the weekend and was willing to contribute. While a softer approach to the exchange of sex for cash it still is what it is...

[axebahia]

>YES, but by the time the weekend was over I end up helping

>them out with rent or a loan as if we were just good

>friends...

 

OK, thanks. The weekend is now on hold while I ponder this some more. Maybe you are right, the temptation would be just too great.

[VaHawk]

Axe, you are definitely an enigma within an enigma. Now you know he is going to want you to pay him based on his "we can work that out" statement. Regardless of how much you personally like each other, it sounds as if you have always had to pay him a fee, regardless of whether you/he thought you should, so I doubt it will be different this time.

 

I feel that he knows how much you like him and enjoy being with him -and is sure he can talk you into paying him regardless of what you say. If you really don't want to pay his fee, then don't import him to see you. If you really want to see him, then ask him for a reduced fee, agree to that fee and pay no more than what was agreed on.

 

Perhaps his "work it out" statement was intended as an opening for a negotiation, as he enjoys being with you and based on your past experiences, is willing to take less than usual. I really don't understand how you can expect him to not want a fee, as that is his business, and unlike attorneys, I don't believe there are any escorts who do pro bono work.

[axebahia]

>Perhaps his "work it out" statement was intended as an opening

>for a negotiation, as he enjoys being with you and based on

>your past experiences, is willing to take less than usual.

 

That's a good point, but I have laid out my terms clearly. Isn't the onus then on him to come up with a counter-offer or forever hold his peace? I have asked that question 3-4 times now, but nobody has yet ventured an answer why this context should be different than any other commercial context.

[axebahia]

>Axe, you are definitely an enigma within an enigma.

 

Actually, that's one of my favorite Churchill lines: "Russia is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma" I plead guilty! :-)

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>I honestly don't know. I have asked myself the same questions

>but I think it is just like our disagreement about how much

>additional data I have to ask a verstile escort if I want him

>to bottom for me. I think it is crass to ask more than that.

>I think by doing so I put the escort on notice that he should

>be prepared to bottom, and I dislike mood-killing particulars.

 

Isn't having an escort show up with a dirty hole because he wasn't expecting to bottom a pretty "mood-killing particular?" And I haven't been suggesting you should ask the versatile escort for additional data; I've been suggesting you give him the most relevant data he needs -- that you want him to bottom. YOU know you want him to bottom; why should the same info come as a surprise to him, especially in light of what you now know about why escorts don't go douching before appointments where they're not expecting it to be necessary? Isn't ensuring that he's "prepared to bottom" rather the point?

 

> Similarly here, I think if I say that I will pay only for

>travel and time with me in a context where someone calls me

>and says he misses me and wants me to fuck him, I don't see

>any reason for me to go any further.

 

Because, unfortunately, your "friend-plus" seems to be trying to muddy the waters by suggesting that you two can negotiate later. He's signalling that he doesn't consider the issue closed, and you're not in return, clarifying that oh yes it is closed.

 

>For me, at that point, if he wants his fee the onus is on him to ask for it.

>

>Why do you not think the onus reverts to him at that point?

 

Well, usually when we're talking with our friends or our "friends-plus," whose "onus" it is isn't an issue. The "onus" for clearing up confusion is simply taken up by whomever happens to pick up on the confusion first. I can assure you that I'm not going to feel bad in the least for this guy if "all" he gets out of this trip is the free airfare and expenses. He's being slimy, in my opinion. But if you're interested in having a "friendship-plus" with him, you shouldn't be slimy in return, even if you are justified in thinking that he's asking for it.

 

Honestly, it seems like you two are treating this as a sexual chess match rather than two friends working out an unusual arrangement. You're both doing too much calculating about how to get what you want and too little thinking about what would be fairest to BOTH of you. If that's how you want to approach the relationship that's your prerogative. I'm just raising these points to suggest that you still need to clarify in your own mind the true nature of your relationship.

 

Another thought: it sounds like this guy is not only young -- which in and of itself is no excuse for anything when the young person in question is an adult -- but immature. Hagen has argued before that people shouldn't start escorting until they're twenty-four, and while I disagreed with that stance for a variety of reasons, he raised a valid point in that discussion which sheds some light on what's going on here. For many young boys who get into this work, escorting is either their first job or the first time they've done work outside of the after-school jobs at Burger King or The Gap that they might have done in high school. They are also still in what could be called the "habit-forming" stage of their sexual and relational lives. This kid seems to be falling into the habit of wanting older men to take care of him. Since with escorting he has to provide a service to get that "care," it sounds like he's looking for something a little less strenuous and a lot less clearly defined: more of a sugar daddy situation. He's figured out that he's so cute and sexy that men will spend a certain amount of money just to be around him, and he's in the process of testing the limits of how much he can get the sugar daddy to do for him and how little he has to do in return. Frankly, I'll be pleasantly surprised if it occurs to him to take you out to to dinner to say thanks for the ticket (which is something friends would do for each other instinctively). (And I'll be the first to say I underestimated him. Unless it's because he's been following this conversation. )

 

If you want to be his friend, I'd suggest showing him by example how friends (and honorable people) behave toward each other. I'd also suggest communciating with him about how he's NOT being a friend to you. He's transitioning out of a lifestyle that has caused certain habits to take root in him, and he may need some help in adjusting the way he goes about relating to people. Whether you want to take that on is of course up to you. Maybe you'd rather stick with having friends that you don't have to teach how to be your friend. But if that's the case at least be honest with yourself about what's going on: two people are using each other and seeking to gain advantage over each other. Sounds more like sex-minus than friendship-plus.

[axebahia]

> And I haven't been suggesting you should ask the versatile

>escort for additional data; I've been suggesting you give him

>the most relevant data he needs -- that you want him to

>bottom. YOU know you want him to bottom; why should the same

>info come as a surprise to him, especially in light of what

>you now know about why escorts don't go douching before

>appointments where they're not expecting it to be necessary?

>Isn't ensuring that he's "prepared to bottom" rather the

>point?

 

Perhaps, but my position is that an escort who says he is versatile should be prepared to bottom. I think your solution let's a lot of escorts who have no intention of bottoming or who engage in selective bottoming slip through the cracks.

 

>He's signalling that he doesn't consider the issue

>closed, and you're not in return, clarifying that oh yes it is

>closed.

 

Yes, but I have shut that door down, by repeating all that I am prepared to pay for, no?

 

>Well, usually when we're talking with our friends or our

>"friends-plus," whose "onus" it is isn't an issue. The "onus"

>for clearing up confusion is simply taken up by whomever

>happens to pick up on the confusion first.

 

I think the onus falls to the party engaging in the equivocation and the party who is expecting pay. In this case, that's him not me.

 

>But if you're

>interested in having a "friendship-plus" with him, you

>shouldn't be slimy in return, even if you are justified in

>thinking that he's asking for it.

 

Is it really slimy for me to set my limits in advance, disclose them, communicate them and stick to them?

 

>Honestly, it seems like you two are treating this as a sexual

>chess match rather than two friends working out an unusual

>arrangement.

 

Good analogy!

 

>This kid seems to be falling

>into the habit of wanting older men to take care of him.

>Since with escorting he has to provide a service to get that

>"care," it sounds like he's looking for something a little

>less strenuous and a lot less clearly defined: more of a sugar

>daddy situation. He's figured out that he's so cute and sexy

>that men will spend a certain amount of money just to be

>around him, and he's in the process of testing the limits of

>how much he can get the sugar daddy to do for him and how

>little he has to do in return.

 

I think that's right. I think that as he is older than 25 his sugar-daddy rental days are over which led him to test the escort market, but he always preferred the sugar-daddy game more and now tries to recreate them with fewer and fewer takers. (The addded twist, I guess is that he really does not need the money (bad habits aside) so I don't really understand this sugar-daddy need at all.)

 

>He's transitioning out of a

>lifestyle that has caused certain habits to take root in him,

>and he may need some help in adjusting the way he goes about

>relating to people. Whether you want to take that on is of

>course up to you.

 

I really never wanted to be a social worker. To be honest, I guess what I want is one last time, but I don't want it bad enough to pay extra for it. As I said before, I don't want a freebie. It's just not something I think at this stage I want or need to pay extra for. I have friends, and there are tons of escorts out there who will cost me less so the cost-benefit analysis just doesn't play out in favour of the social work function.

 

 

>But if that's the case at least be honest with yourself about

>what's going on: two people are using each other and seeking

>to gain advantage over each other. Sounds more like sex-minus

>than friendship-plus.

 

Good point. Thanks. I'll think more about that.

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>>Isn't ensuring that he's "prepared to bottom" rather the

>>point?

>

>Perhaps, but my position is that an escort who says he is

>versatile should be prepared to bottom.

 

Think though what that means. It would mean he'd have to be douched EVERY time he worked, unless some other "overly communicative" client accidentally let slip that the escort wouldn't need to bottom. This means he wouldn't be able to take nearly as many appointments a week, which means he'd have to charge more on the ones he did take. Thus escorts who bottom would be a lot more expensive than they are now.

 

Now it sounds like from what you've told us before you show the ones who say they aren't prepared to the door, so that means the ones who are staying are willing to bottom. But just think how much cleaner and nicer the experience would have been if they had KNOWN they were going to bottom. It's just not the best activity to spring on people at the last minute, unless your sense of smell isn't very good.

 

>I think your solution

>let's a lot of escorts who have no intention of bottoming or

>who engage in selective bottoming slip through the cracks.

 

My solution says clients who want something specific, particularly something that they want an escort's asshole to be nice and clean for, should let the escort know. How does that let the escort slip though the cracks? Heck, if you don't want to say you'll top them, say you really like a nice clean asshole. Unless there's a legal issue with expressing an opinion about the desirability of clean assholes, that should avoid the sting issue you've expressed concern about.

 

>I think the onus falls to the party engaging in the

>equivocation and the party who is expecting pay. In this

>case, that's him not me.

 

If you're talking about "contracting parties," yes. If you were really talking about friends, -plus or otherwise, again I'd hope you wouldn't be thinking in terms of onus.

 

>Is it really slimy for me to set my limits in advance,

>disclose them, communicate them and stick to them?

 

LOL -- of course not! That's exactly what I'm suggesting you do. I know that's what you're saying you're already doing, but by permitting him to reinsert some wiggle room into the situation, you're allowing the waters to be muddied, and it sounds like your motive for doing so is in the hopes that he'll let you fuck him a lot in order to try and "negotiate" a fee out of you. (And be careful. If he's experienced at the sugar daddy thing and catches you in the right mood, you might inadvertently end up being more generous than you'd intended. ;-)) In other words, the slimy part is in allowing him to reintroduce confusion into the situation because you might stand to benefit from that confusion.

 

Anyway, based on the rest of your responses it sounds like you're at least getting clearer in your own mind about the nature of your relationship with this guy. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[axebahia]

>Heck, if you

>don't want to say you'll top them, say you really like a nice

>clean asshole. Unless there's a legal issue with expressing

>an opinion about the desirability of clean assholes, that

>should avoid the sting issue you've expressed concern about.

 

I think in a phone call both parties are best protected by sticking to essentials: age, rate, are you versatile, whem and where. I guess it is an empirical question, but I assumed that when someone asks for a verstile escort they want someone who bottoms, otherwise thy would just ask for a top. Am I wrong? Most escorts I have talked to about this, have told me that, and it makes sense to me, but I do take your point about unwanted douches, I just doubt they would be unwanted. It would be like an escort coming over unshowered and saying, "oh, I thought you might like to have me raw".

 

>Anyway, based on the rest of your responses it sounds like

>you're at least getting clearer in your own mind about the

>nature of your relationship with this guy. Good luck with

>whatever you decide.

 

Thanks to you and my other interlocutors. This has all been very insightful!

:-) :-) :-)

[Rick Munroe]

>I assumed

>that when someone asks for a verstile escort they want someone

>who bottoms, otherwise thy would just ask for a top. Am I

>wrong?

 

Yes, because gay sex does not just mean fucking. There are bottoms who just want to suck; there are tops who just want to get blown. There are versatile guys who are just into body contact & tit play. Devon's right...if you really require fucking, then you have to find a way to explicitly express that or you'll be setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

>I do take your point about

>unwanted douches, I just doubt they would be unwanted.

 

How about "unnecessary"? Constant douching can destroy the healthy bacteria & screw up your digestive system. If you're not going to get fucked, it's dumb to do it everytime, "just in case."

[Guest jeffOH]

Unless a client specifically says he's a top, I don't douche. Although I am versatile, my reviews are mostly about me topping, which is what 90%+ of my clients want who are into anal sex. I'm sure as hell not going to douche before every client on the off-chance they're going to want to fuck me. Less than 1/2 my clients want anal sex anyway, more are into just oral.

 

If I'm with a new client who springs it on me that he wants to fuck me, I politely tell him that I'm not prepared for that, but in the future if he wants to see me again, I'll definitely be prepared.

 

You don't have to go into specifics to get across to an escort what you're into, "I'm a top", "I'm a bottom" or "I'd like to take turns", can help to make your escort experience an enjoyable one.

 

JEFF

jeff4men@hotmail.com

[+ nycman]

>Isn't the onus then on him to come up with a counter-offer or

>forever hold his peace? I have asked that question 3-4 times

>now, but nobody has yet ventured an answer why this context

>should be different than any other commercial context.

 

Ummm...I answered that question...just not very clearly.

 

His is capitalizing on the ambiguity of the arrangement.

He KNOWS you will not agree to his fee up front.

He KNOWS you will pay his travel expenses.

He THINKS you're a sucker that he can get you to cave when he puts

the pressure on you in person. He has no incentive to make the

arrangement "clear".

 

By the way, he did come up with a "counter-offer"...

 

"We'll work it out later"

 

That IS his counter-offer...now take it or leave it!

 

No, it is not a good business model for long term survival...but it's not a bad way to make a quick buck.

 

They don't call them "hustlers" for nothing.

 

PS From witnessing past train wrecks...my money is on the whore.

[axebahia]

>His is capitalizing on the ambiguity of the arrangement.

>He KNOWS you will not agree to his fee up front.

>He KNOWS you will pay his travel expenses.

>He THINKS you're a sucker that he can get you to cave when he

>puts

>the pressure on you in person. He has no incentive to make

>the

>arrangement "clear".

....

>PS From witnessing past train wrecks...my money is on the

>whore.

 

Well, it looks like you and everyone else here were right. The weekend came and went, and I was out of pocket for the airplane tickets, hotel, expenses and the fee. I agreed to pay this time but not before telling him clearly that I gave him the benefit of the doubt the first time, but not this time. He claimed that when I told him that the previous time was too expensive and that I would not do that again, he interpreted me to be saying that I just wanted to do it less often. Back to plausible deniability. In the end, it made for an unpleasant but necessary luncheon discussion.

 

The agreement going forward is that he will come if I just pay for the hotel, air and expenses. However, he then added that would apply if I called him more often, and then also tried to include "spending money". Given his tastes, I give up. Bottom line: We had many great encounters in the past. We spent two nice days in January, and 2/3 nice days in June. However, I am going to retire this escort. I thought that there was a distinction between hustler and escort and escort and courtesan, however in this case I think hustler and courtesan are equally applicable!

 

This weekend also raised the question whether too much familiarity is a good thing with escorts. I think with the frequency of encounters the sexual edge is going or has gone, and so too is the professional disecretion wall breaking down. At a certain point escort relationships begin to feel more like dating, and at that point I think it is time to move on. It's sad, but at least I have the memories!!