Fin Fang Foom on Trent Foster's Response

[BuckyXTC]

Boston Guy:

 

You said it all, and you said it well. Many thanks!

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>This may be an unfortunate but necessary consequence of

>being an escort and constantly meeting unknown men in

>situations where other people are not present.

 

As true as this may be - it isn't really any different than the danger we all face when going home with (or taking home) a guy we may have met/picked up, in a bar, on the street, at the beach - where ever.

 

>FFF was wrong to post this in this manner. As for those of

>you who see it as funny when someone else is held up to

>ridicule, I'd like to ask you to put yourself in TF's

>position for a few minutes. Leave your anonymity behind.

>Put your picture up on display. Tell us your city and state

>and phone number and email address. Then take some actions

>that you felt were necessary to preserve your safety and let

>other people ridicule you. Then see how you feel.

 

Boston Guy - I think you are making too big a deal out of this. FFF posted his put-down as a joke - a means of getting a laugh. Was he wrong to do so? Perhaps he was, but I personally don't see it that way. If the escort had simply said he felt uncomfortable and checked out, I don't think FFF would have found any fodder for his humour. It was the over-the-top explanation by the escort and his trying to justify his position that left him ripe for plucking.

 

If all this had played out on "Saturday Night Live" we would have been rolling in the aisles. This kind of humour has almost become the norm in the world today. Is FFF's "attack" on the escort really any worse than what Clinton had to endure because he got a little blowie at the office. I don't think so, and Clinton had the advantage (or disadvantage) of being the top political figure in the world. Where were we all when he was being pilloried? Surely he deserved more respect that a male hooker!

 

Thunderbuns

[Boston Guy]

TB -

 

Humor at the expense of others is sophomoric. Yes, sometimes it can be cruelly funny, but I found none of that here.

 

Dismissing this as FFF just out to have some fun completely overlooks the impact on the escort in question, both personally and in reputation. It's one thing to have someone say "I think you could have done better." It's quite a different thing to be held up for ridicule in public.

 

Acquiescing in it makes one just as guilty as the others. It's a lot like laughing with the bully in the schoolyard and just as mature.

 

Finally, the message his discourse sends about escorts and how they should react when they feel threatened -- and how we will react when we find out about what they might do -- is just plain wrong and should not be allowed to stand.

 

BG

[+ Charlie]

I found the FFF deconstruction of Trent Foster's response entertaining, as his contributions always are, but like Rick Munroe I was struck by the angry intensity of his reaction to a situation in which he was not involved (?), and I couldn't help wondering if someone else has unresolved "issues". (By the way, I think FFF's thread a long time ago on getting an escort's cum stains off his sofa is still the most amusing piece I've read on this board.)

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>Finally, the message his discourse sends about escorts and

>how they should react when they feel threatened -- and how

>we will react when we find out about what they might do --

>is just plain wrong and should not be allowed to stand.

 

BG: I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one,

 

My my my - ain't we civilized :-)

 

Thunderbuns

[BgMstr4u]

Boston Guy makes some very sensible points. I have been trapped a couple of times by my lust for escorts who turned threatening, and wished I had listened to my feelings first. In each case there was a preconscious premonition that something was wrong, and in each case it was correct. In each case I would have been much better off just to back away and get the hell out of wherever it was that I had found myself before things got more serious.

 

I think TF did the right thing by acting on his impulse/feelings. I agree with Boston that it would have been best for TF to have called the client, but ONLY when he was safely away. Perhaps TF could work up a script for such occasions, so that it is not an emotion laden (anger, fear, etc.) call and retains the goodwill of the client (to the extent that may still be possible) in case the feeling turns out to be wrong. But as I said above, my feelings are almost always on the money, and I'll bet his are too.

[Guest Fin Fang Foom]

>Memo to FFF: "Acting like a man" involves showing

>compassion, understanding and kindness to other people.

 

I don't feel that I need to be compassionate, understanding or kind to people who I believe are LYING. You are of the opinion that he's telling the truth. My opinion is that he is both exaggerating AND lying. Since he chose to cite non-existent "studies" and unreported(!) beatings in his response and then flat out LIED about how many calls he's been on (THOUSANDS!), I can only assume that the rest of his story is mostly bullshit. It's your right to be in denial and think otherwise.

 

Let me ask you this: do you think he was telling the truth when he said he's been on "thousands of calls"?

 

>I suggest you consider the application of at least some of

>these attributes in future attempts to analyze the private

>interactions of two other people.

 

I'm not analyzing private interactions - that's impossible since I wasn't there. I'm deconstructing the ACCOUNTS of what happened. That IS open for interpretation.

 

Continually yours,

 

FFF

[Guest Fin Fang Foom]

>He seems to enjoy demonstrating his analytical prowess by

>dissecting reviews and responses. One can almost hear him

>chortle as he finds a new victim.

 

Just so the visual is complete, I also rub my palms together very quickly while my tongue moves in a counter-clockwise motion over my lips.

 

>the person he's trying to hold up to ridicule is a real live

>breathing person

 

As opposed to a real dead breathing person or a real live non-breathing person.

 

>who's trying to get through his days just

>like the rest of us.

 

Excuse me, but the rest of us face the daily challenge of having a real job.

 

>Do we really want to send a message to escorts everywhere

>that "if you feel threatened and you leave a situation where

>you're not comfortable", your name is going to be splashed

>all over the message board in ridicule?

 

PUH-LEEZ! "Send a message to escorts EVERYWHERE"?!? Talk about hyperbole! I'm flattered you think I have that much power on this message board, but sweetie darling, I don't.

 

>FFF was wrong to post this in this manner.

 

Ah, it's my MANNER that bothers you. It's not what I say but how I say it.

 

>As for those of

>you who see it as funny when someone else is held up to

>ridicule

 

Why do I have a sneaky suspicion that you were the fat kid in junior high that everyone ridiculed? RELEASE AND MOVE ON!!!!

 

>The anonymity provided by the Internet allows people to

>ridicule others as they hide behind the skirts of a false

>identify and made-up screen name.

 

Ok, big guy, put your name where your keyboard is and let everyone know who YOU are. Since you think it's such a repellant practice, be a trail blazer and put yourself on the line. Come out from behind the skirts of your false identity.

 

Friskily yours,

 

FFF

[Rick Munroe]

>Let me ask you this: do you think he was telling the truth

>when he said he's been on "thousands of calls"?

 

Someone must have been absent the day they taught figure of speech (an expression that uses language in a nonliteral way to achieve a rhetorical effect) and poetic license (the liberty taken by a writer in deviating from conventional form or fact to achieve a desired effect) in junior high English.

[Boston Guy]

>>Memo to FFF: "Acting like a man" involves showing

>>compassion, understanding and kindness to other people.

>

>I don't feel that I need to be compassionate, understanding

>or kind to people who I believe are LYING. You are of the

>opinion that he's telling the truth. My opinion is that he

>is both exaggerating AND lying. Since he chose to cite

>non-existent "studies" and unreported(!) beatings in his

>response and then flat out LIED about how many calls he's

>been on (THOUSANDS!), I can only assume that the rest of his

>story is mostly bullshit. It's your right to be in denial

>and think otherwise.

>

>Let me ask you this: do you think he was telling the truth

>when he said he's been on "thousands of calls"?

>

 

I think he was using a figure of speech. On the other hand, his age is reported as being variously 25 and 28. Let's call him 26. Now suppose he's been escorting since he's 19. (I have no information about any of this, by the way; I'm just making a point.) Using your number of 2000 calls, over 7 years that's only 285 clients per year. Surely you don't think that's an impossibly high number for an escort to see per year?

 

Do you have any hard information on how long this man has been escorting? Or how many clients he sees per year? Or are you simply willing to call him a liar because you didn't like his response?

 

Do you think it's ok to call someone a liar just because you don't like what he said?

 

Then you once again emphasize -- (!) -- his comment about unreported beatings of escorts. Do you seriously doubt that violence against escorts occurs? Or that much of it goes unreported, because escorts don't want to go to the police? Surely you're not that naive. Why then do you continue to try to paint his statement in such a way as to make it seem false?

 

Your response above contains a fair amount of hostility and anger -- "I can only assume the rest of his story is mostly bullshit" -- toward someone you have presumably never met. Is it because he's an escort? Or is it because you think he's an easy target?

 

 

>>I suggest you consider the application of at least some of

>>these attributes in future attempts to analyze the private

>>interactions of two other people.

>

>I'm not analyzing private interactions - that's impossible

>since I wasn't there. I'm deconstructing the ACCOUNTS of

>what happened. That IS open for interpretation.

>

 

 

Yes, but in so doing, you take a tack that is deliberately chosen to ridicule this escort. You could easily have chosen to express your disagreement with his actions in another way, without ridiculing him. But perhaps that wouldn't have seemed as funny to you. Perhaps you think you can make your point more effectively if it's done at his expense?

 

 

BG

[Boston Guy]

>Excuse me, but the rest of us face the daily challenge of

>having a real job.

>

 

This may be the most telling thing you've written in this entire thread. Is the source of your hostility toward escorts?

 

 

>>Do we really want to send a message to escorts everywhere

>>that "if you feel threatened and you leave a situation where

>>you're not comfortable", your name is going to be splashed

>>all over the message board in ridicule?

>

>PUH-LEEZ! "Send a message to escorts EVERYWHERE"?!? Talk

>about hyperbole! I'm flattered you think I have that much

>power on this message board, but sweetie darling, I don't.

>

 

 

No, but this board IS influential. Escorts do take it into account when making some of their decisions. Further, young guys who are just starting to escort read it for information about escorting: I know this to be true because I've been told by escorts that they found it helpful when they were just starting out.

 

Your comments make fun of an escort's feeling of danger. None of us were there. If I had been talking to him on the phone and he said "I can't put my finger on it right now but I'm suddenly feeling uncomfortable", I would have advised him to leave right then. A person's personal safety is too important. There's a lot of violence in this country and Texas seems to have more than its share.

 

A public message board that deals with issues surrounding the hiring of escorts should not be sending a message to escorts that they should ignore concerns about their safety. I believe your comments were irresponsible and were made only in an effort to look amusing, at the expense of your chosen victim.

 

>>FFF was wrong to post this in this manner.

>

>Ah, it's my MANNER that bothers you. It's not what I say but

>how I say it.

>

 

 

I've stated that I found the manner in which you wrote your post to be objectionable, because you used ridicule of another person to try to make yourself seem witty. I also object to part of your message.

 

I don't agree with some of the actions that TF took. As I have also stated, I think he was wrong not to call the client back. He should have done so immediately and had you simply called him on that fact, I would have backed you up 100 percent.

 

 

>>As for those of

>>you who see it as funny when someone else is held up to

>>ridicule

>

>Why do I have a sneaky suspicion that you were the fat kid

>in junior high that everyone ridiculed? RELEASE AND MOVE

>ON!!!!

>

 

Sorry to disappoint you; I was thin and was never, to my memory, the object of ridicule. One doesn't have to be the butt of ridicule to be able to recognize that it's not right.

 

 

>>The anonymity provided by the Internet allows people to

>>ridicule others as they hide behind the skirts of a false

>>identify and made-up screen name.

>

>Ok, big guy, put your name where your keyboard is and let

>everyone know who YOU are. Since you think it's such a

>repellant practice, be a trail blazer and put yourself on

>the line. Come out from behind the skirts of your false

>identity.

>

 

Nice try. Clearly, none of us will do this. Which makes it important to stand up and point it out when people start ridiculing others.

 

BG

[Rick Munroe]

>A public message board that deals with issues surrounding

>the hiring of escorts should not be sending a message to

>escorts that they should ignore concerns about their safety.

> I believe your comments were irresponsible and were made

>only in an effort to look amusing, at the expense of your

>chosen victim.

 

Exactly. Very well put, BG. I'm all for humor (be it silly or dark) but FFF's post is hostile, mean-spirited, and most importantly, as you said, irresponsible. I'm really glad you're here, Boston Guy. You've always been the voice of reason, logic and patience.

[taylorky]

Don't go peeling out of parking lots like

>you're a scared little school girl. You obviously want to

>look like a "man" - now act like one.

>

>Helpfully yours,

>

>FFF

:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P HMMMMMMMMM well DEEJ this looks like at least one bodybuilder that won't have the balls to break my neck,ROFL.........next

[Guest Hungman9]

I'm no psychologist but Foom's posts reveal issues about masculinity and about escorts. I agree with Boston Guy that the comment "the rest of us face the daily challenge of having a real job" is a revealing statement about the source of Foom's hostility toward escorts, often disguised as "humor".

[Guest JT]

Hi BG,

 

Long time no talk! Hope all is well with you. Now my two cents...

 

The debate here is really about whom we believe. It's a classical case of "he said, she said" or perhaps I should say "he said, he said".

 

Why did we not believe the client? Or the escort? It seems some of us here feel that they have all the facts and conclude one way or the other. But based on what? Good vibes? Bad vibes? Since none of us (the posters) was physically there, how did we know who is telling the truth?

 

 

>No, but this board IS influential. Escorts do take it into

>account when making some of their decisions. Further, young

>guys who are just starting to escort read it for information

>about escorting: I know this to be true because I've been

>told by escorts that they found it helpful when they were

>just starting out.

 

FFF tried to ask the escort to substantiate his argument by providing the source(s) of the studies and data he quoted in his rebuttal. I was hoping the escort would kindly provide the information. Why not? Would it be an excellent opportunity for esorts (especially the young ones who are just starting to escort, as you mentioned above) to learn more about violence against gay male escorts? Similarly, I'm sure many of us here would also like to learn about violence against clients as well.

 

 

>A public message board that deals with issues surrounding

>the hiring of escorts should not be sending a message to

>escorts that they should ignore concerns about their safety.

> I believe your comments were irresponsible and were made

>only in an effort to look amusing, at the expense of your

>chosen victim.

 

I don't think FFF was trying to ask escorts to ignore concerns about their safety at all. It would be equally unfair to accuse you that your messages are encouraging escorts to use the "bad vibes" excuse just to get out of an appointment with their client. What FFF clearly indicated in his messages was that he doesn't buy the escort's story. There is a huge difference between the two. I think he believes the escort tried to use a legitimate reason as an excuse to cover up something he shouldn't have done. As I said earlier, the issue here is about whom we believe as telling the truth.

 

Regards,

JT

[Boston Guy]

<Blush> Thanks, Rick. That was very nice of you to say that! :-)

 

BG

[Boston Guy]

Hi JT,

 

Nice to hear from you. I hope you're doing well, too.

 

>The debate here is really about whom we believe. It's a

>classical case of "he said, she said" or perhaps I should

>say "he said, he said".

>

 

 

I can see why you might think that, but it's not how I saw it at all. The two people who WERE there really didn't disagree about what happened much at all. Both accounts are pretty much in line with each other. The person who has decided that he knows what happened is FFF, who wasn't there.

 

But that's not even why I wrote. FFF certainly has as much right to post topics here as anyone else. However, in his post, he:

 

1. Ridiculed TF. I don't like to see people ridiculed. Regardless of what someone did or didn't do, ridiculing them in a public forum seems completely unnecessary. FFF was playing the part of a bully. Oh, I know people will say that that's just part of being on a message board and the Internet wouldn't be nearly as much fun if people didn't post such things. To those people, I simply say "Put yourself in TF's place for a few hours and then see how you feel."

 

2. Dismissed TF's concerns about his safety. I think that sends a bad message to escorts, especially young escorts who might be just starting out.

 

3. Under the guise of asking for facts, questioned TF's statements about violence against escorts. He did it presumably to try to bolster his ability to question and ridicule TF, just as he zeroed in on the word "thousands" -- the kind of simple exaggeration we all use all the time (although, as I pointed out in a previous post, it could actually be a realistic number). FFF has the right to question these statements. But in so doing he makes light of the idea of violence against escorts and I felt that was irresponsible.

 

4. Jumped to a conclusion that TF drove an hour and got there and simply decided he didn't want to go through with this call. He decides that TF isn't attracted to the client. Neither TF nor the client support this with any of the information in the review or the response, but FFF decides he knows what the truth is. In his closing remarks, he says:

[ul]

Memo to Trent Fosters: You've decided to make money being a whore. That means you're going to be hired by guys you aren't attracted to. If you have a problem with this, then get a real job. Or, be professional and be upfront with the johns and tell them it's just not going to work and that you're very sorry. Don't go peeling out of parking lots like you're a scared little school girl. You obviously want to look like a "man" - now act like one.[/ul]

 

So what's the message he chooses to send out to everyone in M4M-land, including escorts? Read those last two sentences a couple of times. Then put yourself in the position of a young escort who is feeling threatened or uncomfortable in a situation with a client. Maybe it's even someone today, Saturday, who read FFF's comments this morning. So what do you do?

 

Do you stand there and think "Oh, jeez, I better go through with this because if I back out, this guy's going to write a review and those guys are going to ridicule me for feeling uncomfortable and not acting like a man."?

 

So, JT, I respect your opinion. But I don't think this is just a matter of who to believe. For me, it's about treating people with respect (and certainly with a lack of ridicule), even people we disagree with -- even escorts. And it's about not sending messages to escorts (or clients) that even begin to seem like we're saying "don't look like a girl, go through with your calls even if you're feeling threatened."

 

I would far prefer to have escorts and clients cancel calls if they feel uncomfortable or threatened than to have some guy end up in the hospital or worse because he stayed in a situation that became violent just to avoid being ridiculed here.

 

BG

[Guest Fin Fang Foom]

I could be wrong, but I bet you were one of those terminally annoying children who were always running up to the teacher in tears because so-and-so was being mean to you!

 

You better learn to suck it up buddy 'cause life sucks and then you live - to quote Anna Nicole.

 

Sternly yours,

 

FFF

[Boston Guy]

>I could be wrong, but I bet you were one of those terminally

>annoying children who were always running up to the teacher

>in tears because so-and-so was being mean to you!

>

>You better learn to suck it up buddy 'cause life sucks and

>then you live - to quote Anna Nicole.

>

>Sternly yours,

>

>FFF

 

OK, that's funny. :7

 

Although you're still wrong about my childhood.

 

But I did agree completely with what you said in the barebacking thread... and how you said it.

 

BG

[Rick Munroe]

JT is back! The other voice of reason. :*

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>Don't go peeling out of parking lots like

>you're a scared little school girl>

 

Well - if he peeled out in a parking lot anywhere me - I'd sell tickets :-)

 

Thunderbuns

[tedbear]

"in walks this very unattractive man, not dressed

>to my taste, hair could use some combing, and moved rather

>awkwardly towards me. This was my headless hunk escort from

>Rentboy! Needless to say, this was not going to work.

>However, before telling him this, I asked if he would like a

>drink. He accepted and we began to talk. He was an educated

>person, well traveled, enjoyed sports, and had a great sense

>of humor. Suddendly, I began to see his cute smile, his

>sensual eyes, and a laugh that lite his face up. I was

>seeing beyond the "cover". No longer did I want to end this

>appointment and instead of saying it wasn't going to work,

>we proceeded to my hotel room and had a wonderful time...

>

>To those writers talking about bad vibes and how T.F did the

>right thing, I will say don't be so harsh to judge a person

>that you don't even know. T.F. ran out on his appointment,

>didn't show any courtesy to possibly a very decent man. You

>escorts want to be treated like professionals, well act like

>one. Treat the clients in the same way you would like to be

>treated by us patrons.

 

 

>To those writers talking about bad vibes and how T.F did the

>right thing, I will say don't be so harsh to judge a person

>that you don't even know. T.F. ran out on his appointment,

>didn't show any courtesy to possibly a very decent man. You

>escorts want to be treated like professionals, well act like

>one. Treat the clients in the same way you would like to be

>treated by us patrons.

 

In my advice regarding "bad vibes" I didn't use the term to describe the "Ewwww, I don't think I want to have sex with THAT" which you described in relating your experience, but more a feeling that this doesn't "feel" right--that "There's something about this guy and the way he's acting that's unsettling, and I feel ill at ease in this situation." Perhaps you've never felt it this feeling.

I have and I didn't follow my instincts and I was raped, bitten over 60 times and covered in bruises.

 

I am the last person to reject someone of less than perfect looks. I am now the first person to say "I just gotta go" when you make me feel uncomfortable in a sexual (or pre-sexual) situation.

 

I still stand by my advice. If you don't feel comfortable in the situation--don't do it.

 

Trent should have shown some courtest by calling back and making some sort of explanation--a white lie in this case would probably actually be the best recourse, but I still say better safe than sorry.

[Cooper]

Good lord! someone actually read my post, who would think after reading all these classics that Ted would pick out mine. I'm touched...First off Ted, you went through a hell of a lot, I don't know how long ago this rape occurred, but your advice on this topic is invaluable. Thanks...Like you, my only beef with Trent is that he didn't tell this guy he wasn't coming back and I know Trent got our message...As I stated in a previous post, I've seen Trent dance several times while at the Gaiety, I've been thoroughly entertained by him, and he's always acted like a true gentlemen and professional when dealing with clients. That's why I was surprised by his response...I've e-mailed TF 2x's about this situation and he promptly responded. He knows how I feel and he hopes that I can understand his feelings. He didn't feel it necessary to return this man's calls because the client's first message indicated that he knew it was his fault why TF left. He's sticking with his "response" and having told the truth the first time sees no need to get into this discussion. I had advised him to reply especially to the uncalled for attacks by FFF and he doesn't feel the need as he's said all he's going to say about.

 

I'm not suggestion that we all bombard TF with e-mails, but if you do, you'll find him to be very polite in his answers and open with his comments.

 

Out to TF, you now know who "average Joe" is. I definately will introduce myself to you the next time at the Gaiety. Should I be getting bad vibes? Just kidding!

[Guest JT]

Hi BG,

 

I've been having lots of fun these days and all things considered, I'm doing really well. Thank you for your response. I do understand and respect your points of view as well, particularly about two issues:

 

1. concerns about the safety about escorts and clients; and

2. treating each other with respect

 

Regarding the issue of treating people with respect, I'm with you on this one almost 100%. But since I'm not a saint, I would be honest with you that if people are disrespectul of my friends, family and me, I will not offer them respect in return. I remembered several months ago someone was trying to misinform participants of this message centre by falsifying data and quoting non-existent studies. In that case, I did ridicule those two posters (maybe they're the same person) since they showed no respect to this community by intentionally posting false scientific/medical information.

 

I think FFF beleives that the escort was just making up the "bad vibes" story to get out of an appointment and as a result, reacted the way he did. Of course, it's obvious that many of us here probably would use a different approach. That said, I still don't see how FFF's messages can be interpreted as encouraging escort to continue an appointment despite bad vibes or perception of danger. I also don't think that FFF is going to ridicule an escort who backs out an appointment due to genuine perceived threat of danger. The bottom line is that he doesn't believe the escort's story. Based on that premise, he tried to build a case against the escort by pointing out certain elements in the escort's rebuttal that he thinks are questionable.

 

JT

[Guest JT]

>JT is back! The other voice of reason. :*

 

Shhhhhhh...:* Don't wake up Reg and his troops! }>

 

And are you ever coming to show your face in Vancouver? :9