Married With Children ....... How the Hell Do You Do IT.....

[Godiva]

RE: Thank you for the insight...

 

Just got back from work and and I am trying to absorb the various post on a perplexed topic. First off I can't thank you enough for giving us a glimpse of your lives. Whether they were bad, good or indifferent, you are teaching alot of viewers through your life expierence. I could'nt have paid for this kind of advice.

 

First...Will there is always two ways to ask a question and I am glad you did. I could'nt have asked them any better. Your post took this post to another level ..Thanxs dude cuz I did'nt want to go there :-)

 

Second..Allansmith63..yours was the post that I hoped wouldn't appear but I am glad it did. You see I wanted to beleive that most of these situations can co-exsist as long as everyone is upfront and honest. But that is only the case if the two parties are willing to particpate and are happy with the arrangement. I am glad you didn't harm yourself..You should know that with your words, you may have spared someone elses life tonight...

 

Nasaguy and Charon, I want to marry one day and have my own kids with a wonderful woman..I am not confused.. I will always be gay. Your post have shined a whole new light on something that as Will stated previously I thought was black and white. I think relationships are complicated wether they be straight or gay. As we evolve as human beings I believe and hope that relationships can be tailor made to fill the needs of the partners. It is no ones business...

 

Nasaguy and Charon..I apologize in advance for clumping the two of you together..I don't want to minimize your contributions..

 

Are your friends and family aware or your arrangements...or is this kept within your relationship...

 

I Luv This Post.....

Godiva

[Guest JT]

RE: Thank you for the insight...

 

>Matt's become

>a very good friend (except

>when we piss each other

>off :-) and has always

>helped in my moments of

>desparation.

 

My gut feeling is that when good friends piss each other off, they still remain good friends. Sometimes they may be able to become better, stronger and closer friends because of both the good and bad times they share together.

 

Please accept my sincere thanks and gratitute for the candid and courageous sharings you and othes have shown us on this thread.

 

From one Canuck to another Canuck, here is my heartfelt salute, Allan.

 

JT

[Guest WestTxGuy]

I'm not sure that there is a lot more that I can add (but that hasn't stopped me yet ). I DO know that AllenSmith's post scares the hell out of me. I don't want to have to come clean with my wife and family. And I'm pretty sure I won't unless it gets out of my control.

 

As you can probably tell from my posts, I've analyed and re-analyzed my conflicts internally, and at this point, I still think I can have it both ways. Although as I've said, if one thing has to suffer, it will be my time with escorts. I really, really enjoy having sex with men, but if it comes down to the choice between my family and the sex, my family will win every time. I would just go back to my "right-hand friend" that has kept me fairly happy for much of the almost 20 years I've been married.

 

It sounds like AllenSmith and I have similar upbringings, but my old-fashioned fundamentalist guilt is still strong enough to push the gay sex into a secondary position if need be. My biggest concern is protecting my children and being someone that they are proud of. Of course, if I was totally selfless I would give up the sex now, before anything bad happens--but that's where my conflict rears it's ugly head again. I suppose I'm arrogant enough (perhaps foolishly) to think I can get away with it.

 

And maybe I'm wrong, but unlike AllenSmith, I really don't think that it will bother me enough to affect me mentally, but of course I don't know what the future holds. All I can do is live day-to-day and monitor the situation as it goes. If my life were a movie (believe me, it won't be--I'm too boring) I'm sure that there would be a dramatic incident that would bring my secrets to light and I would have to deal with the issues in a melodramatic way. I'm fervently hoping that won't happen and I'll be able to glide through life enjoying my family and enjoying the company of a really hot studly hunk from time-to-time . To me, that is the balance that would keep me happy. I'm hoping I'm not too selfish to want this, but I can't help wanting it to be this way.

 

I agree that this has been an awesome thread. Undoubtedly because I'm so self-absorbed that it's fun to talk about. But it has been an interesting exchange, and I think every one for their thoughts.

[Will]

RE: Thank you for the insight...

 

But, Godiva, that's just the problem, isn't it? You say something to the effect that it's OK as long as everybody is totally up front and honest. Unless I've misunderstood, none of these marriages rests on full disclosure regarding the sexual behavior of the husband. There are cases in which the wife doesn't know; there are cases in which the wife sort of knows but they don't talk about it; there are cases in which the wife knows but the husband doesn't rub her face in it. It may be civilized, humane, and sensitive, but I wouldn't call it being totally up front and honest.

 

At issue here is what you think "marriage" is. It seems to me that all of this discussion rests on the meaning and status of a legally and, in many cases, spiritually binding commitment of two people to each other. In other words, under the law -- both civil and religious -- marriage is a contract, and a contract is fraudulent if one of the two parties witholds something essential to the contract from the other, something that might have caused the other party not to sign the contract in the first place.

 

I am not saying that some people don't make this work -- obviously, they do. But I do not believe that a relationship can be "tailor-made," as you put it, for the convenience of one person if it entails the ignorance or the partial deception of the other.

 

On this view, the only way I as a gay man could be married to a woman and have children with her would be to marry a lesbian. In that case, both she and I would enjoy equal freedom to explore sexual situations outside the marriage, and neither of us would have to forego sex in marriage for the sake of the other. Children, thanks to developments in reproductive technology, can be had without one's having to do the nasty to get them. But then it wouldn't be a marriage at all, because the fundamental principle for determining whether a marriage is indeed licit -- here again, I'm talking about civil as well as religious law -- is whether it has been consummated. In other words, no sex, no marriage. A marriage without sex is not considered a marriage at all, and can therefore be annulled because it never existed in the first place. Of course, that's a highly legalistic way or looking at it. But we are talking here about a public relationship -- a relationship sanctioned by the state, partially paid for by the state in the form of tax relief and public schools and other social services. However personal and private one may think a marriage is, there is a strong public component. And where there is a strong public component, there is also public responsibility. If that weren't so, I doubt we'd be having this conversation in the first place.

[Guest allansmith63]

RE: Thank you for the insight...

 

Will, once again, summarized succinctly and sensibly!

 

I am, for the first time in my life, able to be honest - firstly to myself, secondly to the wonderful man in my life, thirdly to my ex-wife, and soon to my children and my family. (Sep 15 is the "out" day for me.) The change in myself - dissipation of the constant anger, frustration and depression in my life - I can date to the day I told my wife I was gay. I'm a different person. More than anything else, the dishonest way I was living contributed to the facade of a man that I was - I have always espoused honesty as the critical factor in my life - and my living against my personal values almost killed me. Hence, I came to the point where I had no choice but to be honest, and that ended my marriage - by my choice. My wife was willing to live together platonically, with neither of us having our sexual needs met, but I knew that would lead to more dishonesty on my part.

 

I could lie and successfully fool everyone - except myself.

 

Allan

[Guest WetDream]

RE: Further questions

 

"At issue here is what you think "marriage" is. It seems to me that all of this discussion rests on the meaning and status of a legally and, in many cases, spiritually binding commitment of two people to each other."

 

I totally agree with this statement, Will, but think that you are looking at it from a limited vantage point. Do you think that this commitment is any less broken by extramarital hetrosexual activity? Is it somehow less bad for a man (since that the gender we are really concerned with here) to cheat on his wife with another woman than another man? And what about gay couples that wander beyond the bounds of couple?

 

I suspect what we really find most troublesome is the cheating of the self rather than the cheating of the partner. Certainly the burden of having to deny a vital aspect of oneself within a relationship is infinitely greater that going it alone.

 

I don't have any problem when a man's "gayness" is upfront and known before the marriage. I am friends with several couples where the woman was fully aware of the man's sexual orientation before they got married. Some of the couples have children, some do not. All relationships are based on negotiation. It is easier on all parties if the rules a understood at the beginning rather than changed midstream. How many gay couples do we know that suffer terribly when one of the partners decides that he needs sex outside the relationship? As we have seen from this wonderful and moving thread, things can be worked out. There as many different ways to be a couple as there are to be an individual. Some just cause greater wear and tear on the system.

 

I should point out that much of the above is purely theoretical. Personally, I was born without the "couple" gene. How any two people manage to live together longer than a week is a complete mystery to me.

[Guest DCescortBOY]

why couldn't children be proud of a gay father?

 

<<My biggest concern is protecting my children and being someone that they are proud of. >>

[Guest allansmith63]

RE: Further questions

 

"I totally agree with this statement, Will, but think that you

are looking at it from a limited vantage point. Do you think that this commitment is any less broken by extramarital hetrosexual activity? Is it somehow less bad for a man (since that the gender we are really concerned with here) to cheat on his wife with another woman than another man?"

 

Extramarital is extramarital in my opinion. Once extramarital happens, I believe that the sanctity of the union - the trust - is broken. I don't think it's any "less bad" or "more bad" be it cheating with a man or woman - and I don't believe the impact is any different, either.

 

Just to add a comment along this vein - my wife was relieved that I was gay, and was not leaving her for another woman, because she knew there were serious problems the last few years in our marriage. She confided to me that if I had left her for another woman, she would have been the failure in the marriage. This way, it's my issue because I'm gay, and she can eventually rebuild her life knowing, in her mind, that she couldn't have prevented our marriage falling apart. A rather simplistic summary, but there it is.

 

Allan

[Guest allansmith63]

DC - with children raised in a fundamentalist or evangelical christian manner, homosexuality is a choice, and the WRONG choice. Therefore, kids are taught that homosexuality is SIN. How can kids be proud of a parent that admits to being gay when they are taught it is wrong, shameful and the "participant" is doomed to hell?

[ready4boi]

I find this post absolutely disturbing and in extremely poor taste. I don't know how these people can honestly look themselves in the mirror. It is an intricate webs of lies where innocent lives are ruined in the process. Not all men think with their **** without a strain of ethics and morality. What really troubles me with many of these kinds of escorts more than anything is when there are other innocent lives involved especially children. It's one thing if the escort has a girlfriend or wife who knows, but I personally don't know any women who would have no problem with that kind of relationship. As for being a father and escorting, that is just totally sick in my book.

[+ deej]

>why couldn't children be proud of

>a gay father?

 

They can.

 

Retired pornstar J.C. Carter recently told me that his two sons, 19 & 21, are his biggest supporters. They know all about his lifestyle, his very hot lover, his past in porn, his magazine layouts. He hasn't shown them any of the stuff, but they're old enough to go into a porn shop to see them if they want. (Of course, who wants to see Dad getting gang-banged?) He's been perfectly honest with them and they are very close. They're probably pretty "together" kids. (Unfortunately, he thinks they're both straight. LOL)

 

Just as parents can handle a lot more than we often think, so can kids.

[Will]

RE: Further questions

 

I must have expressed myself badly if you infer that I was talking about sexual infidelity in marriage. I was not. As Allansmith so rightly put it, infidelity is infidelity whether we're talking about man/woman, man/man, or woman/woman.

 

The point I was trying to make has to do with the status of the relationship itself, whether or not strict sexual monogamy is the rule. In other words, I am talking about the state of things prior to the point at which one partner "strays," or even whether both agree to stray.

 

I was speaking solely about the moral complexity of a gay man's deciding to marry a woman for the sake of having children and being the husband and father in a stable, heterosexual, household. On re-reading what I said this morning, after lunch with a straight, married man with whom I discussed this very subject, I would now de-emphasize the importance of sexual intercourse as the substance of the relationship. As my friend pointed out, two paraplegics can be both legally and licitly married. And, in his experience, the relationship is either sacred to the two parties or it isn't -- the legal contract doesn't affect that one way or the other.

 

Finally, while others here may be concerned about drawing a line between being honest with oneself and honest with others, I would not. If I lie to you in order to get what I want, even though I truly believe that what I want is in my best interests, I am being a dishonest person. Period. To speak plainly, one of the things that makes me a little sad in this thread is the pervasive notion that "my" actions affect no one but "myself," and that "I" am the only person whose feelings matter.

 

For a real-life commentary on the consequences of that ethical position, read everything Allansmith has written. There goes an honest man. And a dignified man. No, he doesn't have what he thought he couldn't live without. But he also discovered that what he thought he couldn't live without wasn't worth dying -- or killing -- for.

[Guest WestTxGuy]

>>why couldn't children be proud of

>>a gay father?

 

I didn't mean to say that my children would not be proud of a gay father. I should have been more clear. I don't think my children would be proud of a father who is being unfaithful to their mother. I would feel this way if I was having hetero liasons as well. It's the embarrasment and scandal of the cheating that would hurt them more than the gay side of it. That's what I meant to say.

 

I don't think that in the long run they would be devastated with a gay father. But the more I write here the more I realize how ultra-careful I must be. It's like posting here has magnified the risk in my mind. Not because I think the postings themselves will lead to anything, but because I realize how explosive the fire is that I've been playing with. The pleasure of the passion may not be worth it.

 

On a lighter note, wouldn't it suck if I got caught on a real dud of an encounter (of which I've had a few--but not as often since I started visiting this site). Above all thanks HooBoy for providing this service.

[Guest WetDream]

RE: Mistaken?

 

Yes, this is a disturbing thread. However, I think that you may have made a mistake in reading the responses. Most of them are from married men who HIRE escorts and not, as you imply, married men who ARE escorts.

[Guest WetDream]

RE: Further questions

 

Gotcha.

[Guest WestTxGuy]

RE: Further questions

 

Will,

 

All of your comments are well-taken and accurate. But I would only add that hindsight is 20/20 and people change a lot as they mature. And though it makes me sad to say it, there are very few truly good marriages out there. Almost everyone has some degree of dishonesty and fraud in their marriage, be it sexual or otherwise. And although I know "everybody does it" is not a good excuse, I also know that we are all human and must deal with our own situations as best we can.

 

I got married at age 20, and I was a virgin in all aspects. I had some homosexual thoughts, but I was deeply and passionately in love with my wife and had no motive but to have a family and grow old with her.

 

In the past 19 years, the urges I had to have sex with men grew, while my wife's interest in sex waned. And no, I don't believe the two are related. As I said before, I can "get it up" and have passionate sex with her whenever she says the word, which is rare (we just had an awesome night recently on vacation). I had my first encounter with an escort about 5 years into the marriage, and it so scared and affected me that I didn't do it again for years. As I started traveling more on business, it started sneaking in more to my life, and I rationalized that it wasn't hurting anything.

 

I know I'm being selfish here, which is why this thread is leading me to think I should really curtail things. HOWEVER, I don't think that everyone would be happier if I decided to come out and be completely honest. In my mind, that would be more selfish. I get to do what I want--travel and have sexual relationships with men--and I leave my wife and kids to pick up the pieces (and this is ABSOLUTELY not an indictment of the what AllenSmith has done--we all have to do what is right for our situation).

 

The best situation would be if I didn't have homosexual urges and had never been unfaithful. But I can't turn back time and Will, as you so thoughtfully said earlier: "we play the cards

we are dealt in life." The most selfless act for me would be to abstain and be faithful going forward. I haven't gotten caught so far, maybe I should quit while I'm ahead. That may be a sacrifice I should make for the sake of my family. To come clean would be devastating for all involved, and though it worked well for AllenSmith, I know that it would be terribly wrong for me. It simply isn't an option I'm willing to consider.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

WestTexGuy,

 

I realize how explosive the fire is that I've been playing with. The pleasure of the passion may not be worth it.

 

But can you deny it??

 

This epiphany of yours may grow into an awsome burden down the road, depending on how you handle it -- I hope not. But it seems that your days of eating cake and having it may have come to an end, or if not then enjoyed at a very much higher emotional price. Again, I hope not. There is insight into other contributed posts in this thead that is found in your words and in mine.

[Guest Blink]

RE: Further questions

 

I am married, succesful excutive and my wife knows I line men too. So?

[ready4boi]

I find it very revealing how the wives of these closeted gay men who found out really seem not to have any interest in sex themselves and never really did. Maybe they just didn't have something to be interested in...no offense to the gay men for failing to please them cause obviously they're gay and it's understandable as to why. For those of us who really understand women, they are actually much more complex when it comes to sex than men while men are much more easily satisfied in that respect. Getting a woman off and for them to have orgasms it is much more complicated

[Will]

RE: Further questions

 

>And though it makes me

>sad to say it, there

>are very few truly good

>marriages out there.

 

It makes me sad to read that. But I wonder what you mean by a "truly good" marriage, and I wonder how you know how many there are -- or are not -- "out there." The world is a very big place.

 

But let me ask you this: If we could come up with a yardstick for "very good marriages," and if we could do a census and determine that, in fact, only, say, 33% are very good, what would you say is the reason? My answer would be simple: There are too many bad marriages because there are too many marriages. And there are too many marriages because people get married without thinking a whole lot about it.

 

In your case, the scenario is clear as well as tragic. And don't get me wrong: I do not make moral judgments about any individuals here. Allansmith was in the same boat you're in, and I have known many men myself in similar circumstances who married for the same reasons you did. Unfortunately, fraudulent (the groom, in this case, can be a victim of fraud as much as the bride) marriages are one of the fruits of homophobia. The perpetrator of the fraud, in other words, is bigotry. It's also true, as you yourself witness, that neatly categorizing people as "straight" or "gay" is often contrary to the evidence that nature provides.

 

> HOWEVER, I don't think

>that everyone would be happier

>if I decided to come

>out and be completely honest.

 

I'm not talking here about "happiness" in the sense of a happy ending. In fact, in my earlier post, I tried to make a clear distinction between a moral act that seemed right in itself, regardless of the anticipated consequences, and a moral act whose consequences one thinks one can foresee. In the latter case, the act itself is not necessarily inspired by a purely moral motive, but by the desire to control the outcome of the action. Thus, in response to this sentence, I would make two observations:

 

a. I'm not sure it's up to one person to decide what would be best for everybody else. It seems to me that personal responsibility has to do with governing one's own actions while acknowledging that other people will act the way they will act.

 

b. Happiness that rests on dishonesty, it seems to me, is awfully fragile.

 

c. In the end, I think, one cannot pursue happiness without losing it. Instead, happiness is the by-product of right decisions, but only the by-product. The biggest risk in life is the risk of hurting those whom we love. But not to risk that, sometimes, is to allow ourselves the narcissistic view that we, and we alone, can determine what is good or bad for others.

 

Finally, thank you so much for your goodness, and openness, and candor on this thread. You are obviously a loving husband and father who is caught in a dilemma that I myself have never had to cope with. I truly admire you and empathize with your plight. It would be hypocritical of me to say that from my perspective your life seems to be ticking along just fine. But I do not see with your eyes, think with your mind, or feel with your heart.

[spiro3]

RE: Further questions

 

>a. I'm not sure it's

>up to one person to

>decide what would be best

>for everybody else. It

>seems to me that personal

>responsibility has to do with

>governing one's own actions while

>acknowledging that other people will

>act the way they will

>act.

>

>b. Happiness that rests on

>dishonesty, it seems to me,

>is awfully fragile.

>

>c. In the end, I

>think, one cannot pursue happiness

>without losing it. Instead,

>happiness is the by-product of

>right decisions, but only the

>by-product. The biggest risk

>in life is the risk

>of hurting those whom we

>love. But not to

>risk that, sometimes, is to

>allow ourselves the narcissistic view

>that we, and we alone,

>can determine what is good

>or bad for others.

>

Ouch!

 

Some of these well reasoned points are hitting a little too close to home, as I am in similar straits (!) as westtxguy.

 

But consider this. I am a married late 50's guy with grown children who just a year ago started experimenting, via the escort route, with an aspect of myself I kept firmly under control heretofore by staying busy with family and overwork. I thought my early retirement would be a time of relaxation, but it has proved to be anything but......thanks to my discovery of M4M.

 

Long story short, my new "hobby" was soon discovered by my wife of 28 years, and we've been keeping the therapists in this neck of the woods busy ever since.

 

Of course, this begs the question.........do I come out completely NOW? At this stage of my life? I think allansmith made his commitment at the fail-safe point (I'm guessing early 40's) but what chances for happiness do us older guys have, plunging into a world where we get the sex part, but as for the culture we might as well commit ourselves to a jungle tribe in New Guinea.

 

Any further thoughts on this question

[NASAguy]

RE: Further questions

 

From one who is in very similar situation with you, I'll offer a few comments from my perspective:

Since you say the therapists are quite busy now, I assume that you and your wife have not completely split up over her discovery of your gayness. After spending a little less than 30 years with someone and either being or close to being retired, I don't think either of us would relish starting over again as a single person. I for one want peace, comfort and companionship and the ability to travel and do all the things I've always wanted to do. I don't want it to sound like I am almost dead, but I want stability and a certain level of comfort at this stage of my life and my wife, and probably yours as well, wants this too.

So if your wife can accept the fact that you visit escorts on an occasional basis, this may be enough to satisfy that particular need of yours. If you can be honest at this point, it may well be that you can continue your relationship. Before you think of coming out of the closet any further, however, you should really consider your wife's opinion on this. Even though you may be willing to risk loss of some of your hetero couples' friendships, will your wife feel this way? Would you be forcing her into taking a more aggressive stand, possibly against you? Remember what she may be willing to forgive in private may not be the same thing that she would want to share with her friends.

[Guest allansmith63]

RE: Further questions

 

WestTx - for me, it wasn't/isn't simply about sex with men, it's about living as a gay man.

 

I'm going to tell a story that I hope explains the difference as I perceive it. (And I have Matt_Vancouver's permission :-) )

 

I hired Matt a year ago May - and sparks flew. As our times together moved beyond escort/client, I realized that I loved Matt. As our relationship progressed, Matt taught me what being gay really was. It wasn't about sex - it was about talking and sharing with each other - it was about going for a walk down Robson Street in Vancouver, holding hands. It was about going out for dinner, proud to be together. It was about arguing over who would pay for dinner. It was about laughing together. It was about intimacy. It was about crying on each other's shoulders when down - it was a whole life - not just a moment of sexual pleasure. And then Matt "pushed me out of the nest" (he was a lot wiser than I.) My life had changed completely, as I wanted it to, and needed it to - and now I was on my own. As a fledgling gay man, on my own, scared and lonely, I nearly crash landed in despair many times. I had lots of "updrafts" of support, encouragement and kind words and help (especially from a fellow poster here, who I had the distinct honor and pleasure of meeting this summer) as I leared to fly and as I worked through my "gayness" and put what I had learned from Matt into practice.

 

I realized how much fuller my life was when I was with a man, how content I was - often lonely, often scared, often in tears - but deep down, knew I was who I needed to be. Yes, my being honest will hurt many people I care about deeply. I believe that over the long run, my children will be happier and more stable than if I had stayed in my marriage and made them absolutely miserable with my anger and frustration.

 

This to me is the difference between staying married and having sex with men and making my choice to live as a gay man.

 

There has been no greater moment in my life when a wonderful man leaned over last week and whispered in my ear "I love you". Damn, I'm glad I'm gay!

 

Thanks for listening, guys.

 

Allan

[Godiva]

RE: Further questions

 

Thanxs for sharing that Allan..I heard you..

 

A few nights ago on an entertainment program, there was a segment on Minority Men on the DL (Down Low)..Which meant that they were married or having a relationship with men but choosing not to tell their partners. There is a vast network of these people who communicate with each other. When the interviewer ask the question... What is the difference between living on the DL as oppose to being gay..the respondents said that Gay men prefer gay men while being on the DL meant that they like women and the trappings of the Straight World more then men in the Gay World but they still wanted their flings..Of course the women with these men did'nt know and there were few horror stories..

 

One of them found out she positive and told the man he should be tested..The man confessed he knew he was positve for two years and that he was Bi . This was an extreme case.. The woman was interviewed an said how devastated she was she had no clue what he was doing ....interesting..They were dating for 9mnths..I felt sorry for the woman but I understood the man. Each of us would have probably handeled it differently but its out there and happening all around us ... Another example..

 

Godiva

[Guest WetDream]

RE: Congrats!

 

A friend of mine who loved straight men used to say" The girls get all the good ones. But this time its the boys that got one!