Age of men who hire escorts

[Guest Jake]

Will, I'm sorry you think I don't enjoy your posts. I find you interesting, informative and perhaps the least offensive guy here.

[Will]

Thanks, Jake, especially for the part about being kind. I try to call it as I see it, but I also try to be temperate. I don't always succeed, as witness my need to apologize to HooBoy about the posting of his dinner with Sean.

 

I'm sorry if you thought I meant you didn't enjoy my comments. I only meant to say that it seems like a lot of trouble to wonder why other people say what they have to say. They just do. Let me add that I quickly lost interest in the discussion regarding the legality of prostitution. It was just too abstract for me. I can't imagine that we are going to become an "enlightened" nation regarding homosex as long as the likes of Jesse Helms, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson are still with us.

 

On a happier note, in recent years I've gotten the distinct impression that more and more young people just don't see what all the gay/straight fuss is about. I happened to watch "Real World" not long ago and it's clear that the gajillion kids who watch MTV don't have a problem. Social change seems to percolate up from the people at large, rather than filtering down from the leaders at the top. Thank God!

[Guest Jake]

Also, meant to say in my previous post that I thought the review you wrote (it was you, wasn't it?)about Rick Munroe was great literature, and I said so in a post at the time. BTW, he is the perfect example (as most likely is Matt and a few others)of a great escort. As I get my feet wet in gay life (after 18 years of marriage) I find myself using escorts less and less, but Rick Munroe would be someone I would see at the drop of a hat. So, Will, keep up your posting.

[Guest LITTLEANTNEE]

Will, I often wish I lived in a fabulous "gay ghetto" like Chelsea or the West Village. I must "hide" who I am at almost all times. So, like you, I value the time spent on this site. I agree with you that it is easy to skip the stuff we don't particularly identify with (the Sean stuff that has nearly everyone so outraged now is not very important, although mildly interesting, to me). Further, the Gaiety stuff is so appealing because I know (and lust for) many of the people there. It's fascinating reading about a social situation I've been involved in for years from a whole new perspective. But if you don't go (the universal you, not you in particular) why would it be as important (no disrespect to the fabulous author and my friend NYO) to read? Thanks for your insight, and for making me think a little.

 

Jake, don't go flirting with any other boys. I get mighty jealous, you know (LOL). See you Saturday? AntNee

[Guest Jake]

Hey Antnee - wow, that last post gave me a tingling in my groin. Now I have to figure out if it's because of you or Christian ... or Travis ... or ... oh, well you get the idea. See ya Saturday (unless Prince Charming proposes!).

[Will]

It's a rare thrill to have one's groin tickled so early in the morning, but that's what both Jake and Antnee did for me, too. Thanks guys!

 

Yes, Jake, that was me about Rick Munroe. I remember your compliment at the time and I thank you for it here. Like BostonGuy, I prefer to keep the goings-on in my bedroom to myself; but in Rick's case I thought that it was time somebody described an escort without unnecessary attention to his primary sex characteristics.

 

Antnee, if you and Jake are seeing each other regularly on Saturday nights, and if you know the dancers at the Gaiety, I don't understand what you mean when you say you have to stay closeted where you live. Maybe I'm not seeing something that's obvious.

 

However, if you spend any time at all in a currenly chic gay ghetto it won't take long to determine that its denizens have traded one kind of conformity for another. Unless you are young (or delusional enough to think you can masquerade as young), unless you have nothing better to do than to work out more or less constantly, unless you are willing to shave or wax or whatever your body to turn it into some kind of hair sculpture, and unless you are willing to spend your money at Prada and CK, you'll never make it in Chelsea. I haven't seen so much mindless, lemming-like behavior among gay men since the seventies, when every man in the West Village wore boots, moustache, and chains.

 

It astounds me how easily men (I don't mean gay men, I mean MEN) fetishize a single and nearly unvarying image of erotic stimulation. Those waddling, muscle-bound specimens doing their black-wrapped pecs up and down Eighth Avenue are the gay equivalent of the bleached, bloom-lipped, silicone-bosomed babes our straight brethren seem to find so attractive. For me, one of the biggest problems in finding an escort in New York (I don't live there, but I visit a whole lot) is finding one with something that at least gives the impression of having a natural (i.e., his own) body. The rest of them are just turn-offs for me. I agree with Matt that all those shirtless torsoes look exactly alike. You don't have to go to a dance club to see it. Just look in the escort ads in Unzipped. Yuck.

[ready4boi]

Wil,

 

I couldn't agree more. That's why New York is the best place around offering the biggest variety. You can pretty much find all types of escorts at The Gaiety and Stella's.

[Guest Jake]

Will, while I don't disagree with you, I don't agree entirely either. I am not young (although often I forget ... since coming out is so new to me, I sometimes feel I'm at the beginning again). I do live in the gay ghetto, as do many of my friends, some of whom are hairless statues and some of whom would not identify with any of the descriptions you provided. I'm not ashamed that I go to the gym 5 or 6 times a week. I know I'm not shallow, and I know I have much to offer intellectually, sexually and emotionally. Some of the most profound conversations I've had have been with men resembling Greek gods. I have found the shallowness you describe so well on faces atop bodies of all sizes and shapes, in and out of chelsea and the village. I love living where I do, and wouldn't trade it for anything at this present time. And may I also remind you that a certain escort we both admire resides in this very neighborhood?

[Guest laman6]

I am 26 yo, very attractive but have not found the right person yet

[Will]

Oh, yes, indeedy, that Certain Escort lives deep in the heart of Chelsea. As people are wont to say, I too can say, "some of my best friends...."

 

I would never insist that everybody should share my taste in men or in anything else. Nor do I doubt for a minute that you have had ethereal conversations with the dwellers of Olympus itself. I stand by my sense that there is a tremendous and almost insuperable prejudice among most gay men for a certain "look." I don't care about the look itself one way or the other; I do care about the degree of pressure that other men might feel to conform to the look or consider themselves on the wrong side of the bakery window. Right now, The Look happens to be hard-bodied and smooth. That's fine. If I thought that I could (a) achieve such a look myself and, furthermore, (b) could carry it without looking and feeling ridiculous, maybe I would. But it's not my style. If it's yours, great.

 

I'm arriving on the threshold of my Golden Years now, and whatever wonderful might have happened if I looked more like Alcibiades and less like Socrates I'll have to discover in the next life. Also, I've been out for years in a highly intellectual, liberal, open-minded community. Perhaps if, like you, I'd just come out and were still in my, say, forties, AND lived in NYC, I might be pumping iron myself of an evening.

 

But I have to play the cards life has dealt me with as much grace as I can muster. One thing I have learned is to do everything I can to avoid envy. It makes me feel terrible about myself and it is a subtle form of hatred for others. IT JUST SO HAPPENS that I turn on to an as-nature-made-him look, with clothes, hair cut, and all the rest dictated by his own self-knowledge and not by the fashion mavens. And to be perfectly honest, if I hung around Chelsea lusting after the boys, I would feel old, fat, and ugly AND I would begin to envy them. So I count my lucky stars and look elsewhere.

[Guest Jake]

Will, I'll tell you a secret: I often get that tingle while contemplating Socrates...even more when reading Dante Gabriel Rosetti.

[Guest LITTLEANTNEE]

Will: No, you haven't missed something. I forget we actually don't know each other, but know wach other online. Which, in some respects, is a deeper knowlege than some of the people I've slept with (scary admission). I live about 70 miles from the Gaiety. I work about a 20 minute subway ride away. But my work schedule prevents me from attending the "theatre" more than once a week. I spend alot of time commuting. And I work in a profession where being Gay is OK, but being "out" really isn't.

 

Add to this the pressures of living in suburbia. You are constantly aware of the fact that public display of sensuality (a look that lingers too long, a private smile to the wrong person) can have the same result here as it would where Matthew Shepard (sp?)lived. Perhaps not quite that severe, but the potential exists.

 

Gaiety is one of the last bastions in NYC where one can go to get a good, healthy, dose of sexual liberation. And even Gaiety is not what it once was. I feel that living in a "gay" neighborhood would be liberating because it would be possible to let down your guard a little.

 

This site is another place for me to let my guard down. I value it because at the end of my day I am entertained, educated, infuriated and distracted by the various posts here. It was completely unexpected how much I would come to enjoy this, but I feel very indebted to HooBoy for providing this space for challenging discourse on many of my favorite topics. The insight and viewpoints (and sometimes just plain drama) provided by the "POSTers" is invaluable.

 

Keep on posting Will.

 

And Jake, I think we will soon have to wait on line to get a kiss on both cheeks from Christian. I saw him and Casey do a "duo" at Campus that certainly made me "tingle". A simulated sex-act that was the most fabulous thing I've seen in public since Mayor Dinkins was in office. I can hardly wait for Saturday (and "my Chris" is there, too. Could I Have That Kiss Forever?). See you Saturday.

[Will]

Oh, sweetheart, send me your e-mail address and we can arrange our very own symposium when I'm in New York in October, with You-Know-Who as Alcibiades. Many a young thing has told me, I repeat modestly, that I'm the most seductive Older Man they've ever met. No one is more surprised than I to hear it.

 

On a more serious note, did you see what Shamus wrote on the "Lounge" board today or yesterday about "the look"? I forget which topic it is, but it won't be hard to find. When I say "as nature made them" regarding bodies, I don't mean "gone to seed." Every garden needs a gardener, and every pure-bred animal needs grooming and conditioning. Think what a boring dog show it would be if all the long-coated breeds were trimmed like Poodles -- or, more to the point, shaved as smooth as Weimaraners. One could hardly tell the Kerry Blues and the Briards from the Greyhounds and Standard Schnauzers (my breed). Gorgeousness comes in many styles.

[Will]

At the risk of seeming typically long-winded for an old fart, Antnee, I wanted quickly to thank you for enlightening me. Seventy miles from New York could indeed land a person in one of those hell-holes of straight suburbia that make one long for the ghetto. I'd much rather live in my small Midwestern town where people just don't care much, one way or the other. True, we don't have Divine Beings strolling confidently up and down in public view. On the other hand, neither is our open ground sullied with those tract houses that look like cubed wooden turds, excreted along sidewalk-less streets winding towards nowhere.

 

I think that living one's sexuality (by which I do not mean "eroticism," "sensuality," or even "HOMOsexuality") is probably possible anywhere. Mostly it's a matter of developing an interior life centered on the effort to integrate body and spirit. In this I follow one of my heroes, the late novelist Walker Percy. In one of his novels he says that human beings are half angel and half beast. Their basic problem, he goes on to say, is that most of us spend our time opting for one or the other. Those who try to transcend their bodies, that is, their sexuality, are guilty of what Percy calls "Angelism." The counterparts are those afflicted with "Bestialism." To be fully and authentically human is to be both beast and angel, at the same time, fully fused into a unique being, a human person.

 

When I was growing up in the fifties and sixties, most gay men, myself included, tried to escape homophobia and persecution through "Angelism." We simply pretended not to need physical love. We became opera queens and ballet queens, priests and rabbis, the permanent "extra man" for hostesses. In the seventies, we went the other way, towards what Percy calls "Bestialism." While I don't think we should go back to "Angelism," I do think that, on the whole, much of gay life has become too Bestial.

 

For example, I knew many, many gorgeous gay men who f**ked themselves blind every night and who had not the merest trace of what I think of as gay sensibility etched on their souls. For them, being gay was simply a matter of entering and floating within a kind of orgasmic ether with other gorgeous men. That notion of sexuality focussed almost exclusively on exterior appearances, perceived rather than felt emotions, and group-driven rather than personality-driven behavior. The need to feel desireable and to have sex with other desireable men determined where they lived, how they dressed, how they talked, whom they knew, where they went. It did NOT determine how they lived, what they read, what they thought about, what kind of music and art they took seriously, what they believed -- if anything -- about the meaning of life. What I was saying yesterday is that -- FROM THE OUTSIDE, MIND YOU -- it looks as though life in the ghetto makes "Bestialism" almost compulsory for survival, and does not, really, encourage the development of the "angelic" qualities to balance.

 

I want us to be men, not angels and not animals.

 

Frankly, I seek a society in which people are all happily mixed up together. Just as I don't want to live in a suburb of baby-breeders, I also don't want to live in a ghetto of gay men. I like variety, and the celebration of diversity.

[Guest Jake]

Will, at the risk of encouraging a continuation of this thread, I will make a brief response to your last post (after all, we are in the "deli" and I don't think this is the proper place for the philosophic aspects of sex and life). My response concerns the "gay clones" we've been talking about. I cannot compete with you in words or thought. You are the master. But I do ask you to not to accept what is on the surface as the whole of a person. I'm not saying you're doing that, but it is a danger we all can fall for. I truly believe that these hairless statues you speak of are capable of the depth of thought and perception we all possess.

 

There is a poem I love by the little-known American poet, Eli Siegel. It is "Ralph Isham - 1753 and Later." I do not have a copy of it handy so I will refrain from making exact statements about it, but I think it applies to the men of whom we speak. Ralph Isham was once a dandy, a womanizer, a successful entrepreneur. He was the envy of many. Now, long dead in the churchyard cemetary, Ralph Isham lies. The poet asks: What was he to himself? There, there is something.

 

The surface is always the easiest to accept. Often the most beautiful people have no idea of their own depth, their own desire to be better than they are. This troubles people greatly: an example being Marilyn Monroe who suffered all her life from what she presented to the world and what she felt to herself. As a thinking, feeling being I think it's good for us to always ask: What was he to himself?

[Will]

Amen, brother. I wouldn't be surprised if you, Antnee, and I are the only people reading this thread by now and if we're way out of line I hope HooBoy will tell us so.

 

You and I are saying the same thing, or at least we're supporting the same values. My concern is with the community aspects of gay life, and those depend on appearances. I am concerned that a community of gay men give visible support to helping each other discover what they are to themselves. After all, developing an interior life is an art. It takes skill, sensitivity, lots of good models, and plenty of time. The kind of self-development that I'm talking about is precisely like working out: it requires discipline and effort. The difference is that exercising one's soul lasts a lifetime. Unlike muscles, souls get more beautiful as they get older. I am not making judgments about the superficiality or the depth of anybody. I am talking about the social forces that help us or hinder us in becoming who we can be.

[HooBoy]

You two are not the only oness reading the thread.

 

The theory of "Beastialism" vs. "Angelism" was thought provoking. Perhaps it should be taken to the Lounge for further discussion, but I won't quibble.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and knowlege.

 

HooBoy

Email: HooBoy@male4malescorts.com

[Guest LITTLEANTNEE]

I'm quite tired after sneaking into Gaiety on a rare friday night, but felt compelled to post. WallStreetKindOfGuy's original question centered on the age of men who hire escorts. But, deeper in his post was the implication that someone had made him feel "bad" about or doubt his choice. Out of that grew the current discussion, which I feel Jake and Will have continued. And Will, not to miss the deeper implications of your post, but suburban teenage boys at the mall have completely bought into the "Chelsea Clone" look -- steroids, tatoos, piercings, clothes and haircuts. I had to break down and join a "gay" gym, because the "straight" gym I belonged to was confusing me too much (I would add LOL, but there weren't). The post was great, and Jake -- I'll see you tomorrow. FABULOUS show this week, AntNee

[ready4boi]

The show was fabulous! Now that's something I can agree on. That smoldering Jordan and of course Chris - TO DIE FOR! MMMMmmm. I'll be back for seconds tomorrow night!

[Guest Jake]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-00 AT 10:15AM (EST)[p]This merging of the "looks" is present here in Manhattan also. It's really hard to tell anymore who's gay and who's not. It's one of the problems I had when I first started visiting the Gaiety. Most of these guys so much fit the profile and "look" of gay men that it was hard for me to believe they really were straight. While I think less are straight than say they are, it does appear that a large number of them are, dare I say it, heterosexual. This is true at the gym also. I am still amazed when I see a guy in the locker room looking like he just stepped off the cover of some Fire Island rag who then hooks up with his girlfriend out on the workout floor. Disconerting maybe, but in the long run I think a good thing for both straights and gays.

 

AntNee, save me a seat! Later. And, Will, you are a very sensual man. Thanks for the thought-provoking chat.

[Bilbo]

First, I am at a family reunion. The children left yesterday and I will be back in Houston on Wednesday. I haven't read all the postings below this one yet, but Nee, keep up the good humored work. No, this site is not merely utilitarian. If it had meant to be that, I think Hoo would be saving money by not having these message boards. It would just be the reviews. However, some people, regardless of age, visit escorts because they can't shift out of a totally business headset long enough to cultivate nonprofessional relationships, and this is their site, too. TTFN

[Bilbo]

Couldn't resist mentioning - in my neighborhood in Houston there is a fairly goth inspired looking woman who has a male chowchow that has been clipped into a poodle cut. Eww! Of all the other male dogs, my chowchow wants to fight that one the most, too.

[Guest Viking]

I had similar issues triggered the first time I hired a guy, and I was quite young.

 

I don't hire escorts very often. Partially it's a lack of money--I'm an underpaid college professor with 2 kids and an exwife. You know what I mean. I also have this conflict about paying--you know, sex should be an expression of love and commitment between two people. But trying to find a sober, drug-free, employed, relatively emotionally healthy guy to whom I'm attracted is much easier said than done!

 

The first time I hired a guy for sex, I was about 23, quite attractive, and often picked up guys in the bars in Baltimore where I was living. But not that night. He was a very cute street hustler, "Steve," supposedly straight. I spotted him on a street near where I lived as I was driving home.

 

I was very turned on by the novelty, the illegality, and the hint of danger. And very much by paying, and by getting to suck off a supposedly straight guy who I would not otherwise get to be with. As my therapist would tell you, I have "control issues." And even though orally servicing a guy seems submissive, and is, on one level, the financial aspect gave me a feeling of control or dominance--here I had this hot guy naked in my bed, his dick, his most private part, in my mouth, and he's having to fantasize about his girlfriend or whatever in order to ejaculate for me. So there was this delicious element of dominance over him. I was one of those 90-lb. weaklings in middle and high school, getting beat up by the type of guy who was now working to cum in order to earn a little of my money.

 

Paying for sex like that did trigger some issues for me. Did it mean I was getting old and unattractive? My neighborhood had a lot of street hustlers back then (late 70s), and when I was in college, walking to or from a bar wearing tight jeans, I had occasionally been honked at by johns cruising the neighborhood.

 

So one night after having hired Steve, and when I was very drunk, I decided to do a little test. I went and stood on a corner often used by hustlers (though none were there that night). And sure enough, a guy pulled up (in a chauferred limo no less) and wanted to hire me. He was quite large and the thought of it turned me off, since I was only turned on by thin guys my age or younger--plus I was so drunk I doubted I could get or stay hard anyway--so I waved him away and he drove off looking most offended. (I often have felt bad about that--it must have been awful to think you'd been rejected by a street hustler!)

 

5 years later I was married, having been through a trying-to-be-straight phase. My wife and I had an agreement that I could have sex with men as long as I practiced safe sex and didn't get emoptionally involved. I was in NY on business, tried hooking up with someone "for free" from personal ads, but it was so time consuming, and I knew bars would be, too, and could be fruitless. So I went to the escort ads in the Advocate (back when The Advocate still had personal ads) and found a guy. It was a dissapointing encounter in some ways, because the guy never got hard and had "attitude." But he was very muscular, and when he jerked me off as I felt and held his muscles, I had an orgasm so powerful I can still remember it. At that time I was so conflicted about my gay feelings, especially being attracted to muscles, and it was such a relief to just feel my own sexual feelings. And there was that control thing again, too. A hot guy who made it clear he didn't find me attractive--and I had him posing and flexing for me, and beating me off, and letting me feel all his muscles. Ah, the power of money.

 

Then I found a lover for a while, then I tried to be monogamous for a while, than I had another lover, and then he and I broke up and my wife and I decided the marriage wasn't really working.

 

I was on another business trip, this time to Seattle, staying at the Hilton, and had this fantasy of having a call boy come to my room after I had spent the night at the opera. Trying to find the right bar to go to, and to find a guy I was attracted to, etc., seemed like it would be a crap shoot and an enormous time killer. Nervous, I broke through my fear and called an agency in the afternoon and made an appointment for that night. Right on time, an adorable young man, "Nicholas" appeared at my door.

 

I still had on my suit and looked (if I say so myself) great. We had a drink, then started making out. He got very hard right away, and we had utterly fantastic sex. This time, the turn on for me came from him seeming so turned on by me--much to my surprise and delight.

 

I've had sex with more guys than I could ever remember, guys I picked up in bars, guys in baths, guys I met on the net, guys someone introduced me to. I've had lovers and one-night stands and quickies in the steam room.

 

When I think about what were my most enjoyable encounters--ones where I was really turned on and excited--my few experiences of paying for sex are all on the list.

 

Now my financial situation is improving, and I'm looking forward to being able to occasionally treat myself to good sex with a young man whose body really turns me on. I can get "free" sex, too, but I really think it's worth the money not to go through a lot of hassle, and to be able to really fulfill certain fantasies.

 

Well, sorry to be so long winded! Point is, a lot of guys who are young and good looking hire escorts, for a variety of reasons.

 

--Viking ( mailto:ee267@hotmail.com )