KaiJohnson - NYC - Rentmen

[Strafe13]

7 hours ago, DWnyc said:

That’s totally fine and your prerogative as long as in line with applicable laws. And I’m sure you can find ways to maintain selectivity bypassing laws if needed, as everyone else can do as well. That’s not a personal dig at you - I know nothing about you - just saying that it’s a minefield we all navigate whether or not we realize. 

And if anyone finds your practices - or those of any other business provider - worthy of public discussion they should have the right to do so as well.

 

I’m not saying @pubic_assistance does this, but the rationale he expresses (that business owners should be able to refuse service to whomever they want for pretty much any reason) has been, in my experience and as borne by America’s history, a cover for discrimination in public accommodations.  While there’s obviously no empirical evidence, it’s my firm belief that many escorts hue to this same mentality and use the request for stats and/or pics as a means of filtering out members of those demographics against whom they wish to discriminate.  Like others have said here, I’ve also had providers go silent once my race or color has been revealed.  Heck, it happens in regular hookups all the time.  The LGBTQ community is just as bigoted as any other demographic group.  Conversely, it’s no more bigoted than any other group.  Racism, sexism, queerphobia, white supremacy, Christian supremacy, and various similar ills are endemic in our society, so I’m never surprised when and where they manifest.
 

All the above being said, I don’t know whether this provider Kai requests pics from prospective clients so he can practice racial or other discrimination. But I doubt it, and here’s why.  Kai and i never met, but we messaged back and forth within the past 2 months or so, when i tried to set up a meeting (it didn’t come to fruition).  Kai asked for pics and stats from me, but since my race is indicated in my rentmen profile name, which I’d shared in my initial message to him, I suspect that his request, which came later, had less to do with race/color/ethnicity than with some other trait for which he’s screening.  Ultimately, we didn’t meet because the vibe felt off even though he seemed to be less rigid with the photo request.  But if screening me based on race was the objective, he could’ve just ignored me when I disclosed my profile name in my intro message.    So I guess that something else is going on there.

 Some providers request pics, rather than stats, and in discussions they revealed that it’s a safety measure.  Be that as it may, it doesn’t surprise me that they could be clueless as to how that might be perceived by others as potentially indicative of racial or other discriminatory animus.  

[pubic_assistance]

10 minutes ago, Strafe13 said:

the rationale he expresses (that business owners should be able to refuse service to whomever they want for pretty much any reason) has been, in my experience and as borne by America’s history, a cover for discrimination in public accommodations.  

You're painting with a wide brush, Mr.

Certainly this can be true, but being selective doesn't make you a racist. That's absurd.

 

 

[DWnyc]

Coming back to the question of asking for a picture and is it ok.

As some voices in this thread can attest, there are some triggers if it is felt this is a screener and enough experience from many to suggest it may well be. While understandable in a blind hookup situation, I think there is a difference if this is felt in a “professional” context.
 

Providers can’t have it both ways - wanting the respect they say they do (eg see elsewhere the threads on clients wasting their time, time is $, clients don’t understand this isn’t a hookup it’s their livelihood etc) if they also blur the line between professional services and personal choice. 

 

 

 

 

[Lazarus]

FYI…although I have not engaged this Kai character besides looking at his profile a couple of times when he was mentioned here, he just recently asked me for pictures too. This is after I completely ignored his previous text messages asking me various questions. 

[+ Mrprofessional]

10 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

FYI…although I have not engaged this Kai character besides looking at his profile a couple of times when he was mentioned here, he just recently asked me for pictures too. This is after I completely ignored his previous text messages asking me various questions. 

Me too

[Strafe13]

24 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

You're painting with a wide brush, Mr.

Certainly this can be true, but being selective doesn't make you a racist. That's absurd.

 

 

Reading is fundamental, sir.  In the same portion of my sentence that you quoted, I specifically said that I wasn’t saying that you were doing this.  Interestingly, you left that part out when you quoted me.  You also ignored the qualification I placed at the end of that sentence too.  Why would I have included those qualifiers if I intended to paint with a wide brush, as you say?  I also explained why, based on my own experience with Kai, I did not believe that his requests for pics from prospective clients presented as a cover for racial discrimination.  If I wanted to  paint with a wide brush, why would I have offered that type of individualized assessment of Kai’s approach?

 

It’s also a lot more than that this “can be true.”  There’s long, sordid history of folks invoking the right to be selective so as to justify or excuse discriminatory practices.  Does that mean that this is true all of the time?  Of course not, and I never said that .  But it’s not some rare, isolated phenomenon, as your word choice appears to imply.  Nor is it “absurd” for people of color in this country, and black people especially, to not give the benefit of the doubt to those who expose a, how do I put this diplomatically, less than inclusive and welcoming business model.  Given the historical and cultural backdrop, one could argue that it’s at least a bit naive to be surprised or shocked that some people would legitimately question the true motives for such a rationale.  If not naïve, then it’s least somewhat indicative of a cultural blind spot.

 

And can we please retire this phraseology about something not making one a racist?  There’s nothing on this earth that magically *makes* someone a racist. While proudly racist people will do racist things, not everything they do will necessarily be racist.  But to a certain extent, we’re all the products of this society and culture, and that means we carry all kinds of implicit biases and subconscious beliefs that manifest in all kinds of ways.  Hence, most of us can, and often do, act in racist ways without even being consciously aware of it or intending to do so.  Sometimes that manifests in our ideas about being “selective” about who we’ll do business or associate with, who we find attractive or qualified for certain roles and positions, the types of traits that are acceptable when displayed by certain people as compared to others, what we define as professional, etc.  It’s a deep complicated issue that requires a lot of critical introspection and soul-searching.

[pubic_assistance]

18 minutes ago, Strafe13 said:

Reading is fundamental, sir.  In the same portion of my sentence that you quoted, I specifically said that I wasn’t saying that you were doing this

Intelligence is fundamental too.

I wasn't referring to myself .

Anyone with half a brain would have caught that. I never referred to any personal attack.

 

[Strafe13]

7 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Intelligence is fundamental too.

I wasn't referring to myself .

Anyone with half a brain would have caught that. I never referred to any personal attack.

 

You still ignored the other parts of that very paragraph from which you quoted, where I explained how I was not generalizing. The part about you was one of multiple examples. Read in isolation I could see how you made that mistake. But I still wouldn’t question your intelligence for it.  

[pubic_assistance]

Plain and simple : you're a racist.

Look in the mirror before you accuse others.

[Strafe13]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Plain and simple : you're a racist.

Look in the mirror before you accuse others.

Please don't ruin this teachable moment by getting defensive and hurling insults.  There isn't a single thing you've pointed to that shows or even suggests that I've accused anyone in this thread of being an outright intentional racist.  This is oh so typical in discourse on racism in this country nowadays. When people of color try to engage seriously on the subject of racism, we're met with claims that racism is rare or doesn't really exist, and/or we get gaslit by the dismissal and minimizing of the things that our lived individual and collective experiences tell us might be red flags. Or, the cherry on top, is when we get accused of being the real racists for calling out potential (or actual) racism.  All of us on this thread and in this forum can, and should, do better.

 

Multiple members of color in this thread have pointed out how this "right to select with whom I do business," as exemplified here by an escort's request for client photos, triggers our proverbial "spider sense" as to racially discriminatory or other invidious motives. There is a strong historical basis for that intuitive feeling, as this has been, and continues to be, the rhetorical response from those who have opposed (and continue to oppose) prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations and employment.  Places that used to refuse service to black people also used to proudly include Jews and the Irish on those same signs, by invoking the same right.  Like it or not, this is our history and it informs the present.  The main difference in the modern day is that folks hide the bigotry when they invoke that right.  By analogy, the queer community deals with this now with certain vendors saying they don't want to serve us, all the while telling anyone who'll listen that it's not because they're anti-queer. 

 

More often than not, if we're hearing pleas that something "doesn't make you racist (or queerphobic, or antisemitic, or ableist, etc.)," then we're at the point where it's time to critically reflect on whether said thing is really so innocuous or if our unconscious biases may be influencing it.  I'm sorry that you interpreted that as accusing others, whomever they may be.  It was meant to challenge all of us to do the hard work and not just rest on our comfortable beliefs that we would never do anything racist, or that things we've long thought of as just fine might actually be problematic.  I include myself in the "us," so there was no avoidance of looking in the proverbial mirror.  

[Westsideguy]

Just to make sure, all the conversations we are having here do not apply to Kai. Correct.  ? He saw me without a photo.
 

  If so, the moderator should shut this down.  I would hate for someone to associate these comments with Kai. 

[Luv2play]

13 hours ago, CuriousByNature said:

I'm really surprised by this.  Do you think that the community is more racist than other demographics, or is it just more surprising that racist sentiments exist in a community that has faced so much discrimination itself, albeit based on orientation?  Sadly, racism exists in every demographic, even amongst those who definitely should know much better.  Ugh - society can really disappoint.

You are spot on. Every race has its people who are racist against another group.